ii-V7-I Substitutions

**Tal Farlow** · 05-25-2008, 02:46 AM

Hi guys, my internet is finally working again so it looks like I'm back again. My playing sounds as harmonically advanced as the Backstreet Boys and I really need something more to my sound than the major scale. Don't get me wrong though, I know about things like Tri-tones subs and other common knowledge stuff but can anybody list some ii-V7 or ii-V7-I subs which they use frequently.

I'll start:

Dm-G7-C
Dm-Db7-C
Dm-Ab-C

Then you could do like:

Dm-Ab-Am

You can see that what I am looking for is ways to melodically negotiate a ii-V7-I just to create interesting lines. Subbing in Coltrane changes is fine, but its not something I can use extensively unless I really want to sound outside.

I guess, just say I was playing 20 chorus' of Autumn Leaves and I only know 3 or 4 ways to melodically play over a ii-V7-I i'll be stuffed. And I was at my last gig...

Thanks heaps guys!!!!

**lkmuller** · 05-25-2008, 03:02 AM

Dm-Bb13-C
Dm-Fm-C

**m78w** · 05-25-2008, 09:05 AM

Abm7 - Db7 - Cmaj7

Abm7 - G7 - Cmaj7

Dm7 G7 - Abm7 Db7 - Cmaj7

Ebm7 Ab7 - Dm7 G7 - Cmaj7

Em7 A7 - Dm7 G7 - Cmaj7

Em7 A7 - Abm7 Db7 - Cmaj7

F#m7b5 B7 - Em7 A7 - Dm7 G7 - Cmaj7

F#7 B7 - E7 A7 - D7 G7 - Cmaj7

Dbm7 Gb7 - Dm7 G7 - Cmaj7

Dm7 G7 - Fm7 Bb7 - Cmaj7

Dbm7 Gb7 - Fm7 Bb7 - Cmaj7

Bm7 E7 - Fm7 Bb7 - Cmaj7

Those are some of the ones I like to use.

MW

**JohnW400** · 05-25-2008, 01:06 PM

Matt, thse are some nice looking subs. It's a pretty complete list.

The one I like to use is subing the tritone of the V but using a maj9 in root position and the 7th in the melody. (Fm7, Ema9, Ebma7)

Or the one that is commonly used in Have You Met Miss Jones (pdf to follow in the CM section when I finish it) of Abm7-Db7 before the Gmi7-C7

**m78w** · 05-25-2008, 01:26 PM

Great subs too man.

Another cool sub on Miss Jones is to do this over the first four bars:

Bm7b5 Bb7/ Am7b5 D7b9/ Gm7 / C7

MW

**Tal Farlow** · 05-26-2008, 05:12 AM

So many subtitutions!!!

Thanks heaps guys some of these rock sooo much... I mean 'jazz' sooo much

Special thanks to m78w though, that's awesome!

**m78w** · 05-26-2008, 09:53 AM

Glad you did the subs, I love using these subs as you can take any lick you know and stretch it WAY out over simple changes.

For example, if you have a cool Dm7-G7 lick that you like to use. You just need to know how to start it in 12 keys and you can sound SUPER hip right away over 2-5 progressions like so.

Take the original lick and play it over these progressions, then just resolve it to Cmaj7 everytime.

Dm7-G7-Cmaj7

Ebm7-Ab7-Cmaj7

Em7-A7-Cmaj7

Fm7-Bb7-Cmaj7

Gbm7-B7-Cmaj7

Gm7-C7-Cmaj7

Abm7-Db7-Cmaj7

Am7-D7-Cmaj7

Bbm7-Eb7-Cmaj7

Bm7-E7-Cmaj7

Cm7-F7-Cmaj7

Dbm7-Gb7-Cmaj7

That way you can take just 1 lick that you normally use in a very diatonic fashion and stretch it out to have 1 "inside" lick and 11 outside licks, as long as you resolve to Cmaj7 it'll all work out in the end.

I've attached an example of a lick I like taken through these 12 progressions to make it easier to see.

I've written the 2-5 subs over each bar, but try putting a Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 vamp on and playing all of these licks to see how they sound against the original progression. They should have an out-in quality to them.

MW

**Jazzaluk** · 05-26-2008, 10:19 AM

Hi MW... quick clarification question... In order for these licks to sound outside, they should be played over the original ii V I in C, correct??

**m78w** · 05-26-2008, 10:25 AM

That's right. What I would do is just put a Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 progression into band in the box and put it on repeat. Then I would play all 12 examples over that progression to hear how each 2-5 sub sounds when played over the original Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 progression.

It's a very simple way to stretch your vocabulary and to sound hip while havin an element of tension and release in your playing.
MW

**Jazzaluk** · 05-26-2008, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by m78w

That's right. What I would do is just put a Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 progression into band in the box and put it on repeat. Then I would play all 12 examples over that progression to hear how each 2-5 sub sounds when played over the original Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 progression.

It's a very simple way to stretch your vocabulary and to sound hip while havin an element of tension and release in your playing.
MW

That's what I thought... this brings me to a question about another thread ( Simplifying Changes) where you showed some Hank Mobley substitutions for Autumn Leaves. How do you visualize theses changes? Is the rhythm section playing these changes or are the soloist superimposing lines based on them over the original progression? I'm assuming the latter since the chord substitutions really change the DNA of the tune.

**m78w** · 05-26-2008, 10:54 AM

That really depends on the rhythm section. Some bassists won't know those changes or be able to hear them quick enough, so you just superimpose them over the original Am7-D7-Gmaj7-Gmaj7 changes.

Though more advanced bassists will know and be able to hear those changes and will go along with you. That's a great feeling, when you throw a bunch of subs in and the bassist is right there with you!

MW

**Jazzaluk** · 05-26-2008, 11:08 AM

Thanks for the quick reply... This is a point that has always confused me a bit. It seems that if the soloist decided to inject a little tension with an outside line then the effect could be neutralized by a rhythm section that decides to follow the changes. Granted, it is nice when the communication is that intimate but I have heard players get a bit peaved when the rhytm section tries to mirror the soloist. Thats jazz I suppose.

**m78w** · 05-26-2008, 11:17 AM

Yeah to each their own I guess. The older cats I play with actually get mad when the rhythm section doesn't follow them.

You can't please all the people all the time!
MW

**perhapsguitar1234** · 06-03-2008, 06:58 AM

Fmaj7-Fmin7b5-Emin7
__________________
D G C

**m78w** · 06-03-2008, 09:09 AM

Cool, I dig it.

MW

**deli!** · 06-16-2008, 07:23 PM

if you're not really into learning all those subs at once, try messing around with your more 'basic' chord shapes
i.e. Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7

on the Dmin you play for instance a Dm9(D-F-C-E) , for the G7 chord you shift it up a minor third, thus giving you a G7b9(b13) chord (F-Ab-Eb-G(Ab) ) , if you go with the Ab you could resolve to the G of the Cmaj(6/9) chord(or play an Emin chord in quarts(E-A-D-G).
But the basic principle is shifting the chords up or down, and see what you come up with(offcourse it has to sound right!) Experimenting with everything you learn, to get a feel for it is essential.

**On Sugar Hill** · 06-17-2008, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by m78w

Glad you did the subs, I love using these subs as you can take any lick you know and stretch it WAY out over simple changes.

For example, if you have a cool Dm7-G7 lick that you like to use. You just need to know how to start it in 12 keys and you can sound SUPER hip right away over 2-5 progressions like so.

Take the original lick and play it over these progressions, then just resolve it to Cmaj7 everytime.

Dm7-G7-Cmaj7

Ebm7-Ab7-Cmaj7

Em7-A7-Cmaj7

Fm7-Bb7-Cmaj7

Gbm7-B7-Cmaj7

Gm7-C7-Cmaj7

Abm7-Db7-Cmaj7

Am7-D7-Cmaj7

Bbm7-Eb7-Cmaj7

Bm7-E7-Cmaj7

Cm7-F7-Cmaj7

Dbm7-Gb7-Cmaj7

That way you can take just 1 lick that you normally use in a very diatonic fashion and stretch it out to have 1 "inside" lick and 11 outside licks, as long as you resolve to Cmaj7 it'll all work out in the end.

I've attached an example of a lick I like taken through these 12 progressions to make it easier to see.

I've written the 2-5 subs over each bar, but try putting a Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 vamp on and playing all of these licks to see how they sound against the original progression. They should have an out-in quality to them.

MW

So you're saying you can basically play a ii-V in any key and resolve to cmaj7 and it will sound resolute? Why do I find that hard to believe and why does it work?

**m78w** · 06-17-2008, 09:08 AM

It will only work if you play the "outside" line with confidence and use a pattern/lick/melody/motive that is easy to follow by your listeners.

And the best way to figure this stuff out is just to do it. I'm sure if you played through all of the 12 keys above and resolved them to C you might only like 2-3 of those outside keys. But even if that's the case you've just increased your ability to play over 2-5-1's by 3-400%!!! Not bad for a few days work.

MW

**JohnW400** · 06-17-2008, 11:31 AM

They all will work, some better than others. Some are a matter of taste. It's easier to see why they work if you don't think of them as ii-V's but rather as the upper partials of the base or "parent" chords.

Dmi7 is D,F,A,C. G7 = G,B,D,F
When you use the Em-A7 against these chords (for example) you've now introduced E,B,G,D against tthe Dmi7 and A,C#, E, G against the G7

Now look at the relationship between each of these chords. E,G,B,D are the 9, 11, 13th and root of the Dmi7.

A,C#,E,G are the 9, #11 and 13th of the G7

Instant substitution without having to think too hard.

The thing to watch out for is to avoid clashing too much with the 3rd and 7th of the base chord. So in this example I would avoid scales the use the F#, unless I really wanted to sound out.

You can do this with every one of MW's subs. If you anylize the substitutions and how they relate to the Dmi7-G7, most of the sub's will be some sort of altered upper partial (9,11,13, flated or sharped)

If I'm not mistaken, Pat Martino is fond of the Fm7-Bb7 against the Dmi7-G7. I think he uses it in his solo on "Impressions" for a measure or two in the 3rd chorus.

**604bourne123** · 11-17-2009, 02:22 AM

upper partials is a very nice thing to know and memorize can,t add to much to the thread but a smile

**merseybeat** · 11-18-2009, 07:38 AM

Wow, this is amazing! What an opportunity to milk your favorite licks and take a breather at the same time!

Excellent!

Eddie

**franco6719** · 11-18-2009, 07:46 AM

Excellent thread!

**merseybeat** · 11-18-2009, 08:55 AM

Funny thing is I have some licks that I spent months getting my fingers around and it seemed a shame that I could only execute them a few times during a gig! This threads technique really works well especially if you set up the initial idea in a solid defined manner! I just tried this moving up in tone & half intervals, Whole tones, semis, and just a tritone shift (sounded awesome), Very economical but to great effect!

Eddie

**abracadabra** · 11-18-2009, 05:37 PM

thanks to 604bourne for bringing this oldie back to the top.

some of these threads are like gold dust!

**thebluntman** · 11-26-2009, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by m78w

Glad you did the subs, I love using these subs as you can take any lick you know and stretch it WAY out over simple changes.

For example, if you have a cool Dm7-G7 lick that you like to use. You just need to know how to start it in 12 keys and you can sound SUPER hip right away over 2-5 progressions like so.

Take the original lick and play it over these progressions, then just resolve it to Cmaj7 everytime.

Dm7-G7-Cmaj7

Ebm7-Ab7-Cmaj7

Em7-A7-Cmaj7

Fm7-Bb7-Cmaj7

Gbm7-B7-Cmaj7

Gm7-C7-Cmaj7

Abm7-Db7-Cmaj7

Am7-D7-Cmaj7

Bbm7-Eb7-Cmaj7

Bm7-E7-Cmaj7

Cm7-F7-Cmaj7

Dbm7-Gb7-Cmaj7

That way you can take just 1 lick that you normally use in a very diatonic fashion and stretch it out to have 1 "inside" lick and 11 outside licks, as long as you resolve to Cmaj7 it'll all work out in the end.

I've attached an example of a lick I like taken through these 12 progressions to make it easier to see.

I've written the 2-5 subs over each bar, but try putting a Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 vamp on and playing all of these licks to see how they sound against the original progression. They should have an out-in quality to them.

MW

this is cool as hell