altered scale arpeggios

**gingerjazz** · 09-25-2010, 02:46 PM

When I play over say a major seven chord i try to base my lines around the arpeggio.

As Pat Martino says, arpeggios are the skeletons of the licks.

But, when playing over an altered chord and using the altered scale would you still think in terms of basing your lines around areggios?

Mark Levine says there are no avoid notes in melodic minor harmony which i get as all the notes are essentially chord tones, but would you still base your lines around arpeggios?

I know you can also use any of the arpeggios from the harmonized melodic minor scale such as the major seven, sharp five, or the minor major seven etc.

**gingerjazz** · 09-25-2010, 02:47 PM

Also same question on dominant scales

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 09-25-2010, 04:37 PM

There are a lot of ideas you can work into a line, and I can't think of a chord you shouldn't play an arp over! Over a Galt, I like:

B D# G Bb (all this arps can be played forwards or backwards, of course)
D# G Bb Db
F Ab B D#
etc...

Another idea is to work a perfect fourth or two into your line. Like Ab Eb or Bb F or Db Ab over Galt.

**gingerjazz** · 09-25-2010, 04:42 PM

Thanks BD but what im trying to say is are you still thinking of arpeggios with embellishments on these types of scales.Sorry if im not getting my point across im not so good with words. Probabaly why i try to play music.

**gingerjazz** · 09-25-2010, 04:43 PM

Any thoughts sredna

**drobniuch** · 09-25-2010, 04:51 PM

When I play over say a major seven chord i try to base my lines around the arpeggio.As pat martino says arpeggios are the skeletons of the licks.But when playing over an altered chord and using the altered scale would you still think in terms of basing your lines around areggios,Mark levine says there are no avoid notes in melodic minor harmony which i get as all the notes are essentially chord tones but would you still base your lines around arpeggios.I know you can also use any of the arpeggios from the harmonized melodic minor scale such as the major seven sharp five or the minor major seven etc.

good question... like BD said there R many aproches.. You R talking about the alt chord compared with Melodic Minor so i think you will find a little help in this video:

**gingerjazz** · 09-25-2010, 04:58 PM

Thanks drobniuch of to check it out now.Ill be back to let you know how i go on.

**gingerjazz** · 09-25-2010, 09:15 PM

What Do You Think Bilk

**JohnW400** · 09-25-2010, 11:25 PM

The thing with any scale , altered or otherwise, is "what do you hear?". The two most common dominant sounds in the melodic minor are the lydian b7 and the altered scale.

The lydian b7 is pretty much a dominant with a #11. It sounds 'bright' in contrast to the altered, which has a darker sound. The altered scale has the b5, #5, b9, #9.

The next thing to remember is that if you wrote out a 13th chord it would contain all 7 notes in the scale but in thirds. What that does right there is make every note some kind of chord tone. Either a 1,3,5,7,9,11 ot 13th (A C E G# B D F#)

Likewise every triad fits every chord. adding any triad from this scale to a bass note will give you a 7th , 9th or 11th or 13th version.

The melodic minor has all 4 basic triads in it. Minor (Ami, Bmi) Major (D, E)Diminished (F#, G#) and Augmented (C, E , G#)

The other thing that makes this a hip scale is that there are two tritones in there ( F#-C and G#-D)

When I want to sound slightly out I use arpeggios to ge tto the upper partials. So If I have an A minor I would run a Cmaj#5 arpeggio against it and I get the 3579. On an D7 I might use an E7 giving me a 9 11 13 1.

It's when I use them as tritone substitiute then I get the Altered sound. Playing a D7 against the Ab7 I get the b5 7 b9 3. A Cma7#5 against an Ab7 gives me 3 #5 7 #9.

The good part about this last one is that Ab7 "usually" resolves to some kind of Db. Moving from C to Db is a half step away.

Apologies if you already knew all this.

**jeffroi** · 09-26-2010, 02:39 AM

my two cents : my "one size fits all" alt arpeggio is a disminish chord half step higher
for a Galt : G#° arpeggio (= B°, D°, F°). But you probably already knew this one.

**merseybeat** · 09-26-2010, 03:23 AM

my two cents : my "one size fits all" alt arpeggio is a disminish chord half step higher
for a Galt : G#° arpeggio (= B°, D°, F°). But you probably already knew this one.

Yeah cause the G# note (G#°) = b9(G) = G7b9 = same chord!

Eddie

**gingerjazz** · 09-26-2010, 07:16 AM

Please dont apologise guys the fact im asking shows you that i not a jazz expert by any means.I really do appreciate anyone who is prepared to give me the benefit of their expeience.I have been hurt many times in the past wheni have gone to jam/live jazz sessions and asked a silly novice question,and been sneered down upon as if ishouldnt even have been talking to them unless i happen to be pat metheny or someone else world class.I have met some wonderfull people through my interest in music,but i have also met some very cruel an d hurtfull people too.

**merseybeat** · 09-26-2010, 08:25 AM

Hi GJ, yeah I know exactly what you mean! I have been a "victim" too, but it actually made me stronger! Ask away mate, theres a tons of good people on this forum who will help out best they can! Unfortunately there are some "snobs" too! (Usually with no profile???). I usually comment on the mistakes and discoveries that I have experienced (Loads of them) and just like to share my learning curve experiences (Been shot down for this too lol). But as I said I have also made a lot of friends here who have really helped me through!

So ask away mate!

Eddie

**gingerjazz** · 09-26-2010, 08:35 AM

Thanks for that merseybeat .I am trying to improve my ear training i have got the aebesold jazz ear training book and go to the online sites,but am really finding it difficult to recognise cho.rd qualities.Do you think this is normal for most people as im worried that maybe i have something missing in me that is stopping me being able to recognise them.If it is just a case of working hard at it i dont mind that .Any help or advice would be great.

**merseybeat** · 09-26-2010, 08:46 AM

GJ, these things take time! If you can tune your guitar then your ears are online! Do you get goose pimple when playing a CMaj to Cmaj7 chord?
For now analyze what you know, and get used to the 3rd note of the chord (Is it major or minor?) and the 7th note of the chord (Is it Maj7 or Dominant 7th?)

1(root)..2nd..3rd
Major = Doh, Ray, Me
Minor = "We don't need no education"

(red=3rd)

Don't worry mate you will get there! Root, 3rd, 7th for now then 5, 9, 11, 13 when your ready! Don't rush this! Take your time!

Eddie

**gingerjazz** · 09-26-2010, 08:54 AM

Thanks for the encouragement mersey,are there any samples of yor playing online that i culd listen to.

**merseybeat** · 09-26-2010, 08:55 AM

Hi GJ I am just rebuilding my site with some Jazz tracks! Will let you know!

Eddie

**gingerjazz** · 09-26-2010, 08:56 AM

THANKS mersey are there any samples of your playing i could listen to online please.

**gingerjazz** · 09-26-2010, 08:57 AM

oops sorry i dont know how i managed to do that

**Sredna** · 09-26-2010, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by gingerjazz

Any thoughts sredna

Sorry gingerjazz, this topic is out of my league. I'm really a noob when it comes to jazz. I've been at it for about a year and progress is slow. I'm proud of my self for not having already quit. I listen almost exclusively to jazz and I attend quite a few jazz concerts and this is the only style a want to play. I hope that I will be able to attend jams and sit in at gigs in about 1-2 years. Jazz is not really designed for instant gratification, it takes a lot of time even to become mediocre. I'm getting a lot of joy out of it however and I believe this is a life long project for me.

Nice playing merceybeat!

**gingerjazz** · 09-26-2010, 09:55 AM

Nice to hear from you,it sounds like we have the same goals,i too have ambitions to play with other jazz musicians, i have played in cover bands but got bored with that,so went into jazz .It feels like ive gone from the top of the second division to the bottom of the first division.

**gingerjazz** · 09-26-2010, 09:57 AM

Mersey im going to check out that book thanks for the tip.

**FatJeff** · 09-26-2010, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Sredna

I listen almost exclusively to jazz and I attend quite a few jazz concerts and this is the only style a want to play.

Mark my words, this will be your ticket to playing jazz better than anything else. Knowing how the phrases and notes are "supposed" to sound - by listening to jazz masters - is the absolute best way to playing jazz. If you start doing transcriptions as well, you will be unstoppable.

This is not to say that you won't also have to woodshed - because you will - but you can't play jazz without knowing how it actually sounds!

**Sredna** · 09-26-2010, 03:34 PM

FatJeff, thanks for the encouraging words.

**Jazzyteach65** · 09-26-2010, 06:15 PM

I actually posted this same topic a few months ago with a system I use. I actually got the idea from Dan Hearle, legendary UNT professor in his book "jazz Language." I realized if I took the 13#11 arp a fourth above the root of the melodic minor, or a tritone from the altered "root," you will have all seven notes.

If you practice the arp, and consider/work each triad or arp that comes from each note/tone of the 13#11, you will get 7 applicable arps to mix with the V chord.

Example:

G7=G altered. this arp would be Db7#11, spelled, Db, F, Ab, B, Eb, G and Bb.

each of these tones has a triad you can work with. there are formulaes created when mixing the triads with the V7 chord that give altereations:

G7 + Db triad= G7b5b9
G7 + Eb triad= G7#5#9
G7 + Ab triad=G7b9#5
G7 + Bb minor triad=G7#9b5

all you need to worry about is working the 13#11 dom arp up a tritone from the V chord. so a line could be: d-, Bb minor triad-resolved to Cmajor.