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That's jazz. It's hard. If it were easy everyone would do it well.
Originally Posted by Mick-7
Who is saying ignore anything. Chap 1 has a concept, Chap 2 has a concept. There is some relationship between each but there is different emphasis and development in each. The book will continue to develop on some similar themes in the same manner. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Again if you're talking about straight eighths is being not "rhythmically vital" again this not contradictory. The vitality comes with the total rhythmic conception. The creativity and ingenuity of your rhythmic construction. The underlying point he was trying to make in the opening chapters was that even a boring line could be made interesting with the right rhythmic elements - but it has to be balanced. It was a bit of a thought experiment based on trying to correct what his students were doing by removing some things that would normally be there as an element of solo architecture (like tasteful space).
J is own playing is far more space oriented in practice - especially in early playing. That was part of my reason to additionally analyze his recorded output rather than just his line "studies"
If you want to learn something about how he thought about this straight eight, timing thing , given that Dad is no longer with us then I'll explain what he thought about this.
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04-06-2026 03:03 PM
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Sure.... it's not covered in the book? Originally Posted by RaneyJR
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No. This is a timing issue that he dealt with students. It's more of a technique thing not a theory thing. Although if I analyze far enough I guess it could be. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Essentially his "straight eighth" advice (and likely Joe's) had to do with getting back to basic timing first, if you don't have that together. Because a lot of his students had timing issues - they rushed, they dragged, or used an exaggerated feel all in the effort to approximate what they thought sounded like swinging playing trying to make the music "speak". So it was his way of centering their concept to the basics. Get your basic time together than add the spice you want. And his sense of time was frightening. He could hear if you were rushing even half deaf.
Hal Galper taught similar things. I remember seeing that in some video of his.
He looked at swing timing - to a large degree - about taking straight eighths and dropping back slightly to give the line more weight. Accenting 8ths as the key not like a hyper swing feel. The most extreme example (he often quotes) is Dexter Gordon.
He would employ a more rounded eighth if he was playing with swing players. He would also adjust the timing of his lines depending on what the rhythm section was doing. If they were ahead/on top he'd drop his line back more. If they played behind he would try to play a little ahead to keep the tempo from dropping - which it will eventually do.
In my view, his approach to swing was more about the ideas themselves - in particular beat, measure grouping, a variety of accents.
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Thank you for that, it's enlightening. Originally Posted by RaneyJR
"And his sense of time was frightening."
Yes, his sense of rhythm is the first thing that struck me about his playing, it's very unique.
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The chord cycle in the book is a cycle of 5ths progression: I^7 > VI7(or bIII7) > II7(or bV^7/bV7) > V7(or b117).
Might as well loop that and improvise on a melodic phrase over it. There are tunes in which that progression is prominent (After You've Gone, Just in Time, etc.) but it's only 4 bars so there's not much point in using them for this exercise.
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Cycle of fourths? Originally Posted by Mick-7
But really it's just a turnaround. Common subs for one.
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Oh right, opposite direction - variations on VI-II-V-I. I see that it's used throughout the book. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Hey Jon! Thanks so much for taking the time to listen and offer advice. Yeah, on reflection, I had a couple of brain farts while composing my version. In the first bar, I'm not sure whether I went to the D7b9 too early, or I'd just got mixed up and played the F7 instead of the major 7. It occurs to me too I should have put an F# at some point over the D, as I see you did in your version. I'll take a proper look at it tonight after work, and, ahem, compare notes Originally Posted by RaneyJR
I think you have the right idea rhythmically. Just not quite hearing the changes so clearly there, though. For example your example feels a bit like a long elaboration on F7b5 rather than navigating the changes?
With that, I propose this modification of your notes, Cliff (bad dum dum tish
) I kept the basic structure of your line. In the ending I couldn't resist a direct attack of beat 4 which is another Raney-ism (in addition to the one you tried a 3 and 4 and syncopation)
Attachment 131035
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Originally Posted by CliffR
Right, hearing the changes without the rhythm section backup is one of the reasons I suggested not doing that. Bebop and Jimmy's style is really about hearing the harmony in line. You have to learn to listen for that. I actually transcribed in some online notation what you did in order to map out exactly what was striking me as odd. From there, I shifted notes around.
Given I'm sort of cheating on my day job, I won't always be able to do this, but it's interesting doing a live book study interaction for sure.
Good luck, Cliff
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I, and am sure the rest of us, are grateful for whatever time you can spend dropping in here. Maybe our experiences will help if you ever decide to do a second edition Originally Posted by RaneyJR
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Here's another quick line of the first 4 of A Foggy Day. I tried to be more mindful of the changes this time around.
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Definitely hearing more changes but in your 2nd bar what are you thinking about harmonically when you played the notes: G# A G# F# D# C#? Originally Posted by CliffR
I think I know what you're hearing (based on the resolution to G-7 in 2nd position) but I'm curious if you're hearing that because it's unconventional
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Well the last note, C#, goes to D, so it's a chromatic approach note (I think that's what it's called?). The rest of the line is diminished. Originally Posted by RaneyJR
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So, in the sheet I'm working from, that's an Ab7. Over this I was thinking 1, b9, 1, b7, 5, then leading chromatic tone to the 5th of the Gm (the melody also goes from C# to D here, so I was pleased to incorporate that). Afterwards I thought maybe it I should be thinking of the Ab7 as a tritone of D7, in which case the warnings of chapter one's C section apply and I ought to be wary of the b9 ornamentation. Originally Posted by RaneyJR
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All this raises some interesting questions on "right and wrong" changes. Originally Posted by CliffR
BtwNot aware of any such C# in melody? Originally Posted by CliffR
C, C, C, Eb (a foggy day) Eb D D A (in London town) F F Ab (had me low) G G D (had me down)
My gut reaction to hearing those notes was an upward resolving F#-6 to G-7. Not diminished though it contains notes within the scale (except C#). It's highly chromatic - in particular G# and C# to my ears. I personally have not seen Ab7 as something that people play. I did see someone posting real pro changes with it. I don't view that as definitive.
In the earliest versions I hear A-7b5 D7b9 or some variation on that, like A-7b5/D to D7b9 or A-7b5/Eb to D, etc. Arrangements tend to use inverted chords. Sinatra and Ella and other common singer's version use A-7b5 to D7b9. For me it's the most natural sounding. The most natural way to traverse that is via G harmonic minor which introduce 2 chromatic tones the Eb of the melody and the leading tone F# of V7 of ii (aka VI7). Further enforcement of this m7b5 interpretation is the sequential D-7b5 G7 introduced later by the Ab melody. How people actually traverse these changes is a different story. Sometimes composer's goals can be different than improviser's goals.
(I need to come back to this given Jimmy's own '55 version contradicts this somewhat...)
The chromatic avoid notes discussed in Chapter 1 you mention are particularly on the Db7 C7 variation.
The context was also in prior examples where he introduced the b9 and the b9 #9 which work well when they resolve to the natural gravity key tones within the key of F. This is thrown off by the chromaticism of Db7 in it's pure form, because altered notes on Db7 are actually more in key so resolving them to non-key notes of Db further gets you out of key.
His introduction of Ab7 really has more to do with the "Miles" variation to DbMaj. The ear accepts bIII7 -- bVI --bII etc as a coherent alternative through years and years of hearing it and the strong root movement. Also if I'm being honest, I think it reveals my father's intention to pre-demo the changes to Here's that Rainy Day (spoiler alert - Chap 2)
So on my father's '55 version. There is a transcription of it on Youtube that probably a number of you have seen.
In his typical counterpoint arranging style he plays a chromatic line C, B, Bb, A, Ab Db C B, etc. The transcriber interprets the change as Ab7 because of the C. It's reasonable to see it that way but I hear the C as moving towards B (Cb). In other words, Ab-. The general line trajectory is downward from C to A.
My father has a particular penchant for the 1/2 step above minor (Ab-7 Db7, G-7 C7). And he uses it fairly frequently in the solo. The other soloists not so much if at all. He also frequently uses bVI-bII7 in his 50s recordings (another spoiler alert)Last edited by RaneyJR; 04-08-2026 at 10:58 AM. Reason: missed OP point
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In my case, I googled and came across a lead sheet on the MusicScore website that has the Ab7 to Gm7. So really I was just thinking chord to chord, and seeing this as a combination of the original progression and the first transformation in the book's variation A. Originally Posted by RaneyJR
Thanks for the clarification about progression C's avoid notes.
Agreed: no C# in the melody. I was thinking of going from Eb down to D, both of which are in the melody, but instead using an enclosure, so Eb -> C# -> D
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I see. I guess there are quite a few using Ab7 online as I look. Though plenty with A-7b5 too. It's really hard to say where they're getting it from. I'd have to see Gershwin's original manuscript. Though that often gets into testy discussion about "respecting" the original changes that can get into needless debates in my view. Originally Posted by CliffR
Oscar's Gershwin book version is definitive and he favors the Ab-7 1/2 up changes. It's very natural sounding the way he approaches it. I think that's the key. If you can sell how you hear it by manifesting harmonic logic in your solos, then there is a lot of room for harmonic interpretation.
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Well, in that part of the A section (in F major) there's a D7b9 with Eb in the melody. Ab7 is of course the b5 sub for D7 and D7b9 = Ab7b9, no roots. Originally Posted by RaneyJR
"Though plenty with A-7b5 too"
But with it's relative V7b9 chord, i.e., Am7b5/D7b9, in both the Real book and Jazz Fake book.
We probably don't want to be mixing and matching the chord variations from Chapter 1?
Last edited by Mick-7; 04-08-2026 at 03:17 PM.
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Oh, Ralph Patt may be to blame!
From his Vanilla Book:
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Mick-7, you probably shouldn't box yourself completely and allow for G-7 in addition to G7 for 3rd bar. G7 is a little harder to play I find because it has that cycle of dominants feeling (e.g. you already altered the VI now when you arrive you're altering the II) which maybe makes it more mechanical. Originally Posted by Mick-7
We probably don't want to be mixing and matching the chord variations from Chapter 1?
I was just looking for a way to make the chapter practice less "clinical". Off the top of my head I was just trying to imagine tunes that had I-VI-II-V7, a bar apiece. In a way, not so many - more have 2 beats each. Have You Miss Jones would work as well.
II7 chords, in reality, have a particular bar location and focus on Tin Pan Alley tunes in practice. If you examine some you can see the pattern. And it's often a way to sit there a second (often with a b5) as a way to spell the usual ii7 chord which has that strong pull to resolve to V7.
In the end I think a reasonable adherence to some structure but some room for creative variants that sound good to you is the way to go here. The goal is good sounding lines.Last edited by RaneyJR; 04-08-2026 at 04:05 PM. Reason: grammar
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Yeah, I've been guilty of mixing up different chords from different progression, without perhaps an understanding of how certain subs work together in a particular sequence. Here's my previous line, but now adapted to a FM7, D7, Gm7, C7 progression. Maybe now I'll try and take it through the actual progressions in the book.
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The cool thing about your phrase is that, since it's diminished, it works just as well over D7(b9) as Ab7(b9). Originally Posted by CliffR
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Yeah, I was actually thinking in terms of the arpeggio from the third, but I guess it's just two ways to describe the same thing. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Here's another one. I'm thinking maybe it's time to move on to chapter two.
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Swinging line. Maybe the swingiest phrase I’ve heard you play. Starting on the and’s helps. Rhythm makes all the difference. I agree about starting with Chapter 2, but I’ve been chopping at the bit about that since we’ve started. Originally Posted by CliffR
Chapter 1 is a good overview, but we get into the language of rhythm in chapter 2. Swing is a result of all of these rhythmic devices making mixed into the rue of the groove. Let’s get beyond the lives of two consecutive eighth notes!
Last edited by PickingMyEars; 04-12-2026 at 03:28 PM.
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