The Jimmy Raney Book Study Group

[PickingMyEars]

Jon! Good to see you on the thread! Even if it’s briefly, we appreciate it. Potential to turn this into a masterclass book study with the author. I’m all ears! Time studying that book is time well spent. Jon Raney dared to do something different finishing his dad’s book. Fits right inline with the whole “rhythm synthesizes and transforms all raw material from the woodshed into actual music.”

[RaneyJR]

It’s great to have you dropping by, Jon. Thanks both for your contribution here, and of course for the book, which must have taken a lot of your time to put together. Appreciated!

I actually watched your video yesterday, but it’s a little ahead of where I’m at in the book, so thought I’d come back to it in a couple of weeks. We’re not all at the same page in the book - some have just bought it, while others have had it for a while. The general consensus, though, was to start with the first chapter and move forward at our own pace. As you know, it’s not a case of reading the idea, understanding it, then moving on. It’s more about reading the idea, understanding it, then embedding it in your playing - and that last thing will take longer with some of us than others, which is natural.

So, I’ll get to chapter three a little later, and can look back at this discussion then. Please pop in again when you feel like it.

Thanks for your comments on the book, Rob. And good luck with the studies. I will drop in from time to time. You all need to marinate on everything and work out your questions as you go. Perhaps as you work this out I will do more demo videos. Probably a good excuse for me to get back on the video production horse!

As far a methodology, I would recommend the same approach I tried out in the videos. That is, take some example verbatim in the book and try to add something or a variation of that structure (For example when I took the rhythm changes phrase verbatim in the displacement video) and added a continuation. This solves the dreaded "starting from a blank canvas" quandary.

I also feel that this follows the compositional practice tradition that I learned. I don't recall if it was Hindemith or Sessions composition book but we were given a set theme and asked to continue it. there is both restriction and openness. Same thing in a counterpoint. For jazz improvising its kind of an intuitional composition. Part of it is known, part of it not when you start. With a enough variations in your bag you begin to make good decisions followed by other good decisions that are entirely personal. But you need to submit your results to a fair amount of objective self-scrutiny and revision until it meets a certain standard.

[Rob MacKillop]

I learned from Walter Piston’s books, but my teacher failed me in that particular test when I had to continue a fugal subject in the style of JS Bach. He said it was “pure Delius”, which I actually found very encouraging!

[CliffR]

I'm spending some this afternoon composing some lines over the Autumn Leaves A section. Here's the first one I came up with. Using some ideas I've picked up along the way to retain some form of the melody and adhere to Jimmy's 'things to think about'.

[CliffR]

Another one, which bears a reasonable resemblance to what I intended. I'm very happy to hear about suggestions for improvement.

[PickingMyEars]

Nice use of triplet and faster lines @CliffR. You kept the form. Honestly, I would still recommend practicing without a backing track or a metronome. A backing track can suggest a different feel than what you want to practice. My single lines feel longer and more complete without a backing track or metronome because I have to rely on myself for everything. Just make sure the form in internalized .

When I talk to Jon about Jimmy’s playing, I always go back to the rhythm. Jimmy had a beautiful sense of melody, which was accentuated by his genius sense of rhythm—just like Charlie Parker.

Practice starting lines on the upbeat and’s. Additionally , experiment with odd number phrases. Building lines with 3 consecutive eighth notes (not triplets, just eighth notes). Then do 5 and 7 eighth notes. Jon goes into more detail later in the book, but those beginning line in chapter one give us a taste. Those rhythms aren’t a happy accident. The rhythm sells the melody, and Jimmy Raney understood the complexity of musical try time.

Wish me luck on this cruise. Seems like the vacation from hell, hope it won’t be another poop cruise

[CliffR]

Nice use of triplet and faster lines @CliffR. You kept the form. Honestly, I would still recommend practicing without a backing track or a metronome. A backing track can suggest a different feel than what you want to practice. My single lines feel longer and more complete without a backing track or metronome because I have to rely on myself for everything. Just make sure the form in internalized .

When I talk to Jon about Jimmy’s playing, I always go back to the rhythm. Jimmy had a beautiful sense of melody, which was accentuated by his genius sense of rhythm—just like Charlie Parker.

Practice starting lines on the upbeat and’s. Additionally , experiment with odd number phrases. Building lines with 3 consecutive eighth notes (not triplets, just eighth notes). Then do 5 and 7 eighth notes. Jon goes into more detail later in the book, but those beginning line in chapter one give us a taste.

Wish me luck on this cruise. Seems like the vacation from hell, hope it won’t be another poop cruise

Hey - thanks for taking the time to listen and provide feedback. I'll keep in mind what you said. FWIW, all of these were composed and practiced rubato first, without a metronome or backing track. That's how I do much of my line practice.

And yeah, good luck!

Anyway, last one from me today.

[Rob MacKillop]

What Pick suggested is still to come in the book. It's a danger when people urge you to do the next step before you are ready, don't you think? Speaking from personal experience, I know the dangers of moving too fast.

[CliffR]

Speaking from personal experience, I know the dangers of moving too fast.

Yep, I've been guilty of doing the same in the past, possibly as a result of being a quick study when I was a kid, but music for me requires a much slower and measured approach. I'll be taking this one chapter at a time for sure.

[Mick-7]

What Pick suggested is still to come in the book. It's a danger when people urge you to do the next step before you are ready, don't you think? Speaking from personal experience, I know the dangers of moving too fast.

Yep, I've been guilty of doing the same in the past, possibly as a result of being a quick study when I was a kid, but music for me requires a much slower and measured approach. I'll be taking this one chapter at a time for sure.

Actually, it's next on the agenda: CHAPTER 2: REFINING / ENHANCING LINES WITH RHYTHMIC DEVICES

Chapter 1 is practically a synopsis of all the strategies in the book, too many things to think about: sequences, phrase construction, rhythmic variations, using and resolving chromatic tones.... your head could:

Use sequence with varied rhythm, and include pitches that create harmonic interest. (A1-A2)
• Vary the shape of the line. (A2, bar 3)
• Use flatted 9ths to create more melodic interest on dominant chords. (B2)
• Connect to the 3rds of the chords to better define the harmony. (B2)
• Use syncopation to sustain rhythmic vitality in the line. (B3)
• Use the b9 #9 suspension combination to create tension and resolution to the dominant root. (B5)
• Take special care preparing and resolving chromatic tones, resolving to diatonic key related pitches.
(A3, C1-C3)

[PickingMyEars]

The rhythmic concept gets a little challenging, but helps us rethink harmony as the only priority. As Barry Harris said, “rhythm rules the world.”

Start with the syncopation. Try to start lines on the and’s. The odd phrasing and suggesting different meters comes later. For me, that’s the heart of Jimmy and Jon’s work. The book invites us to think deeply about melodic construction. This is not an ordinary book and that intrigues me because it gets to the heart of improvisation through uncharted waters!

Without close attention to rhythm, all of our harmonic know how is dead in the water. By the way, my cruise looks menacing

[Rob MacKillop]

Pick keeps trying to pull us into Chapter 2...clearly he sees it as important. Calm down, Pick, we'll get there!

[RaneyJR]

Hi guys,

Based on what I've heard so far I have the following suggestions

• Increase the tempo (at least to 120-130 bpm)

The examples in the book have a certain implied speed that is conducive to mostly eighths. As a general rule, there are usually different ideas at different tempos because each tempo has a particular tempo "character" that make the music go at the speed.

• Be sure to try out the specific concepts - force them if you have to - and try to make them musical

Don't be afraid to write out the phrase examples to start and even force yourself to try out a specific concept. Think of these like etudes or a writing assignment, where you need to conform to certain parameters and find your spots for creativity and originality and (sometimes) please an imaginary audience or teacher.

• Avoid the backing tracking for now and let the ideas and concepts speak for themselves.

Just use a metronome and play straighter eighths - like an etude - for now. No behind the beat stuff, etc. You can do that later once you really "feel like music". Don't jam until you come up with something that really strikes your fancy

• You might try tunes that directly relate to the progressions in the book

Some obvious candidates might be "Here's that Rainy Day" (for the chromatic I bVI etc.) And perhaps "A Foggy Day". (for the others) This is up to you but I find myself wanting to apply progression examples to a larger context immediately.

[CliffR]

Hi guys,

Based on what I've heard so far I have the following suggestions

• Increase the tempo (at least to 120-130 bpm)

The examples in the book have a certain implied speed that is conducive to mostly eighths. As a general rule, there are usually different ideas at different tempos because each tempo has a particular tempo "character" that make the music go at the speed.

• Be sure to try out the specific concepts - force them if you have to - and try to make them musical

Don't be afraid to write out the phrase examples to start and even force yourself to try out a specific concept. Think of these like etudes or a writing assignment, where you need to conform to certain parameters and find your spots for creativity and originality and (sometimes) please an imaginary audience or teacher.

• Avoid the backing tracking for now and let the ideas and concepts speak for themselves.

Just use a metronome and play straighter eighths - like an etude - for now. No behind the beat stuff, etc. You can do that later once you really "feel like music". Don't jam until you come up with something that really strikes your fancy

• You might try tunes that directly relate to the progressions in the book

Some obvious candidates might be "Here's that Rainy Day" (for the chromatic I bVI etc.) And perhaps "A Foggy Day". (for the others) This is up to you but I find myself wanting to apply progression examples to a larger context immediately.

Thanks for the pointers, Jon! Very much appreciated. Speaking for myself, if was doing any 'behind the beat stuff', it was entirely unintentional . But I hear you about the straight 8ths. Also, I'm delighted to hear you recommend Here's That Rainy Day. I've been holding in a terrible joke about that one for days now.

[lawson-stone]

I'm spending some this afternoon composing some lines over the Autumn Leaves A section. Here's the first one I came up with. Using some ideas I've picked up along the way to retain some form of the melody and adhere to Jimmy's 'things to think about'.

I really like this. It's got a very cool feel and the melodic movement hits right.

[Rob MacKillop]

I hear you, Jon, but am physically unable to play faster these days after illness. But that doesn’t stop me from appreciating the study as a way into understanding Jimmy’s art.

[RaneyJR]

I hear you, Jon, but am physically unable to play faster these days after illness. But that doesn’t stop me from appreciating the study as a way into understanding Jimmy’s art.

Sorry to hear that Rob. Sometimes I straight up compose in Sibelius to flesh out ideas and hear them. Perhaps that could be an avenue?

[CliffR]

I really like this. It's got a very cool feel and the melodic movement hits right.

Thanks Lawson! I'm looking forward to hearing your take when you have a chance.

Here's four bars of Foggy Day, trying to take on board some of Jon's comments.

[RaneyJR]

Thanks Lawson! I'm looking forward to hearing your take when you have a chance.

Here's four bars of Foggy Day, trying to take on board some of Jon's comments.

I think you have the right idea rhythmically. Just not quite hearing the changes so clearly there, though. For example your example feels a bit like a long elaboration on F7b5 rather than navigating the changes?

With that, I propose this modification of your notes, Cliff (bad dum dum tish) I kept the basic structure of your line. In the ending I couldn't resist a direct attack of beat 4 which is another Raney-ism (in addition to the one you tried a 3 and 4 and syncopation)

[RaneyJR]

That advice is contradictory to most of the examples in Chapter 1, Jon.....

• Use syncopation to sustain rhythmic vitality in the line.

As far as backing tracks go, I find just drums and bass to be o.k., but not chordal accompaniment.

Seriously, Mick? What are you trying to prove here?


1. syncopation is not the same thing as note feel
2. Playing straight feel to start was direct advice Jimmy gave his students. I was there for it

[Mick-7]

Seriously, Mick? What are you trying to prove here?

Not trying to prove anything, as I said earlier, I find chapter 1 to be confusing.

2. Playing straight feel to start was direct advice Jimmy gave his students. I was there for it

It doesn't say that in Chapter 1, you have examples with quarter notes, dotted quarter notes, and tied eighth notes.

As an example, the Figure A-2 description says: "Now the phrase has been filled in with added syncopation (dotted quarter and eighth in the first bar)."

As I said in an earlier post (I quote) .....

Chapter 1 is practically a synopsis of all the strategies in the book, too many things to think about: sequences, phrase construction, rhythmic variations, using and resolving chromatic tones.... your head could:

Use sequence with varied rhythm, and include pitches that create harmonic interest. (A1-A2)
• Vary the shape of the line. (A2, bar 3)
• Use flatted 9ths to create more melodic interest on dominant chords. (B2)
• Connect to the 3rds of the chords to better define the harmony. (B2)
• Use syncopation to sustain rhythmic vitality in the line. (B3)
• Use the b9 #9 suspension combination to create tension and resolution to the dominant root. (B5)
• Take special care preparing and resolving chromatic tones, resolving to diatonic key related pitches.
(A3, C1-C3)

[RaneyJR]

Not trying to prove anything, as I said earlier, I find chapter 1 to be confusing.



It doesn't say that in Chapter 1, you have examples with quarter notes, dotted quarter notes, and tied eighth notes.

As I said in an earlier post (I quote).....

Chapter 1 is practically a synopsis of all the strategies in the book, too many things to think about: sequences, phrase construction, rhythmic variations, using and resolving chromatic tones.... your head could:

Use sequence with varied rhythm, and include pitches that create harmonic interest. (A1-A2)
• Vary the shape of the line. (A2, bar 3)
• Use flatted 9ths to create more melodic interest on dominant chords. (B2)
• Connect to the 3rds of the chords to better define the harmony. (B2)
• Use syncopation to sustain rhythmic vitality in the line. (B3)
• Use the b9 #9 suspension combination to create tension and resolution to the dominant root. (B5)
• Take special care preparing and resolving chromatic tones, resolving to diatonic key related pitches.
(A3, C1-C3)

Mick-7 Just an FYI The Things to Think About endings are my completely written by me, not Dad. So I don't need them repeated and bolded for me, thank you
All those points in Chapter one are trying to give summary with specific example references, that's it.

Your quote of your quote doesn't shed light to me in what you're confused about.

I've avoided commenting on your posts generally because I find them snippier and more argumentative than other posters here. But I don't really understand what you find confusing to be honest. And I've explained that playing straight eighths have nothing to with syncopation. This is execution and feel.

And given you're talking to the Co-author of the book you're trying to dissect. I find this kind of attitude you' seem to be presenting unreal to be honest.

Again, I ask you what do you hope to gain by nitpicking and trying to "catch me" in contradictions to my own book?

At least say, "Jon I find this part of this specific part of the book confusing or this example. Can you explain it?" I don't need you to agree with me just, a little respect, deference - under these particular circumstances ...something. Is that so hard?

I'm not really going to devote much more time to this so say what you will. Then I move on.

[Rob MacKillop]

That's Mick. Sorry, Mick, but very often I have no idea what you are talking about either. Nothing personal. It's maybe tough to hear it from Jon, but generally on fora a more gentle and thought-out approach gets more considered results.

[Mick-7]

Mick-7 Just an FYI The Things to Think About endings are my completely written by me, not Dad. So I don't need them repeated and bolded for me, thank you

It was bold in my previous post from which I copied it: The Jimmy Raney Book Study Group

Your quote of your quote doesn't shed light to me in what you're confused about.

Just what I said, too many things to work on: sequences, phrase construction, rhythmic variations, using and resolving chromatic tones. It's intimidating, first chapters like that can prompt me to put away a book and not look at it again.

So, I should ignore the advice in chapter 1 about creating rhythmic variety for now? (such as quoted below)

"Now the phrase has been filled in with added syncopation (dotted quarter and eighth in the first bar)"

"However, there is still not enough rhythmic interest here. Let us add more syncopation in measures 2, 3 and
4 by attacking the upbeats of the “and” of two and four and holding them over (see Fig. B3)"

Thank you for your input.

[Mick-7]

That's Mick. Sorry, Mick, but very often I have no idea what you are talking about either. Nothing personal. It's maybe tough to hear it from Jon, but generally on a forum a more gentle and thought-out approach gets more considered results.

I merely described the difficulties I had translating Chapter 1, I doubt that I am the only one who had trouble with it.

Joe Pass also recommended playing straight eighth notes when constructing lines, but he considered it the reverse of "creating rhythmic variety", thus my confusion.