The Jimmy Raney Book Study Group

[Rob MacKillop]

Yikes! That is a welcome distraction. You are forgiven!

[PickingMyEars]

Rob, I listened once normal and once at double the speed.

I think increasing the tempo might sell the ideas a little better.

Doesn't have to be double the tempo, but working up to a faster pulse would make the rhythmic/melodic vocabulary stand out more.

Chapter One already hints at some odd groupings (3,5,7,9, etc). Those groupings contribute to the asymmetry and propulsion of the overall line. Add more asymmetry to the lines. Jon told me that sometimes the best lines felt almost out of control, he has a better way of describing the asymmetry. Jimmy called it the difference from being "flat footed" and swinging. He mentioned that in the recorded lesson that resurfaced a couple of years ago.

One more point. Jon and Mike Longo shared a fascination for the "new down beat." Jon explains it better than me, but it's like feeling the 4 or the "and of 4" as the new downbeat. Gives a new resolution point and changes how you frame the rhythm of the rest of the line.

Loved the examples you filmed. You said you wanted feedback, hopefully that helps. I still have to get my shit in gear and record something. Maybe after my job interview today or tomorrow. Glad you started the thread--I want it to keep going!

[Rob MacKillop]

Good comments, Pick. Of course, I'd like to play faster, but I'm just happy to be playing at all after a two-year illness.

"Feuilles Mort" - the original title - literally means Dead Leaves, which has a darker shading to it than Autumn Leaves. So I prefer the song slow, if the singer can hold it together, but then again the lyrical implication is of someone not quite holding it together. I find all this interesting, and groan audibly when a band leader counts off a jaunty to brisk tempo. But your comment stands anyway, as we are learning how to develop good lines, and they are more impressive when played somewhat faster.

My criticism of my recordings is that they are made up of mostly predictable four-square lengths, so I'm looking forward to the next chapter where we start utilizing rhythmic devices - even more so in Section II.

Good luck with the interview!

[CliffR]

In bar 2 of example B4, the notation appears to say E F D for the first three notes. The natural 9 comment appears above the F, but I guess it ought to be above the E. Should the F actually be an F#? I notice it's specifically notated as an F natural in the third bar over G7.

[Rob MacKillop]

I noticed that, Cliff, but glossed over it. The e should be natural - I do think the natural 9 comment is for the e. The question is really over the f/f# dichotomy. I don’t know for certain. Try bending the note inbetween

[CliffR]

I noticed that, Cliff, but glossed over it. The e should be natural - I do think the natural 9 comment is for the e. The question is really over the f/f# dichotomy. I don’t know for certain. Try bending the note inbetween

Bending!? I thought that was forbidden Next thing you know I'll bringing out my guitar with the whammy bar.

[Mick-7]

I am going to do this but this week we've had ALL the grandchildren and their parents--18 at the dinner table! 9 grandchildren all 9 or under! It's been fun, but chaotic and obviously not a study break. I will be back on board in a day or so.

That's far too uptempo, remove the triplets!

[Mick-7]

I'd appreciate some feedback - not of the "well done, Rob" variety, more about what I'm doing, and if you think it is what Jimmy and Jon were looking for, in the ballpark, or have you a completely different take on it.

As I said earlier, too many things to think about on at one time while I'm practicing improvisation: changing the shape and length of phrases, changing the rhythms, altering chord tones and resolving them....

I do these things anyway when I'm practicing but usually just one or two strategies at a time.

Hearing a recording of Jimmy improvising on Autumn Leaves would help, I imagine that could be found on YouTube.

[Mick-7]

We can see many of Jimmy's improvisation devices applied in this solo:

[Rob MacKillop]

Certainly. He has a unique style. We have all heard lots of boppers play near-continuous lines which just create the aural equivalent of blurred focus. Jimmy is very articulate in both language and rhythm. His is a fascinating art to study.

[CliffR]

Here's a quick attempt at applying chapter 1's ideas (or at least some of them) to the A section of Autumn Leaves. Feedback very welcome.

(Edit. Maybe I should give you some idea of what I was going for. I wanted to add the b9 to the F7, but I think I only remembered to do this once. I wanted the #9 and b9 on the D7, which I did more successfully, but I'd really like to learn how to hang on to those dissonances the way Jimmy does. Connecting to the thirds is already built into the melody. When he says 'pitches that create harmonic interest', I took him to mean arpeggios, so I managed to squeeze in a Cm arpeggio at one point. I'd like to add more syncopation. I think I did okay on the lines of the melody in this respect, but would like more coming through on the spur-of-the-moment lines. And I complete forgot about varying the shape of the lines.)

[Rob MacKillop]

Well done. Cliff. Nice singable lines here and there throughout.

Hopefully we'll hear more from others in due course. Nothing is right or wrong here. We're just trying to find ways to implement Jimmy's suggestions.

[CliffR]

Well done. Cliff. Nice singable lines here and there throughout.

Hopefully we'll hear more from others in due course. Nothing is right or wrong here. We're just trying to find ways to implement Jimmy's suggestions.

Thanks Rob. I'm looking forward to hearing recordings from the others too. I'm thinking I could spend a fair bit more time on just these ideas for chapter one, although chapter two looks very enticing . Have you moved on to it yet?

[Rob MacKillop]

No, I haven’t - just a brief scan to see what’s coming. Enticing’s the word. Like you, Cliff, I also feel there is more to explore and embed in chapter 1.

[charlieparker]

Here's a quick attempt at applying chapter 1's ideas (or at least some of them) to the A section of Autumn Leaves. Feedback very welcome.

(Edit. Maybe I should give you some idea of what I was going for. I wanted to add the b9 to the F7, but I think I only remembered to do this once. I wanted the #9 and b9 on the D7, which I did more successfully, but I'd really like to learn how to hang on to those dissonances the way Jimmy does. Connecting to the thirds is already built into the melody. When he says 'pitches that create harmonic interest', I took him to mean arpeggios, so I managed to squeeze in a Cm arpeggio at one point. I'd like to add more syncopation. I think I did okay on the lines of the melody in this respect, but would like more coming through on the spur-of-the-moment lines. And I complete forgot about varying the shape of the lines.)

Good stuff, Cliff. Your solos are getting better and better.

[PickingMyEars]

Screwed up the form, but wanted to get something in quickly before I leave for vacation.

Acoustic, recorded on my NEW (ahem, refurbished) iPhone.

I want to develop the theme more and work on the rhythm. Jimmy Raney does all that with such subtlety.

[Rob MacKillop]

Nice feel to your time and accents, but yes, the form got a bit lost. Now, cancel your vacation, and get to work!

[CliffR]

Good stuff, Cliff. Your solos are getting better and better.

Thanks CP! The road goes ever on and on....

[Rob MacKillop]

[Mick-7]

The definition of "sequence" in the book is unclear to me? - "Use sequence with varied rhythm"

[Rob MacKillop]

A sequence being, for example, a four-note arpeggio, which you then play maybe a tone lower - essentially the same little phrase at different pitches. When playing the second little phrase, try varying the rhythm for variety. That is my take on what he is saying. Are you imagining something more complex?

[RaneyJR]

A sequence being, for example, a four-note arpeggio, which you then play maybe a tone lower - essentially the same little phrase at different pitches. When playing the second little phrase, try varying the rhythm for variety. That is my take on what he is saying. Are you imagining something more complex?

Yes, I think this is pretty accurate. Think of it like in varying degrees of sameness. From exact repetitions --> "related". It's sort of a key core concept of the book underpinning the "rightness" of what Jimmy does. It undergirds another concept later, "related but different". What is that thing that does that?

There is a dive into this particular thing here: I've queued a specific example discussion of a neighbor tone sequence.

So here it's viewed as sequential in that there is melodic shape repeated up a step, then an added wrinkle of changing the rhythm to reduce the monotony. I think there is a subtle dance he always strives for: coherence without obviousness.

Hope this helps.

Jon

[Mick-7]

A sequence being, for example, a four-note arpeggio, which you then play maybe a tone lower - essentially the same little phrase at different pitches. When playing the second little phrase, try varying the rhythm for variety. That is my take on what he is saying. Are you imagining something more complex?

His use of the term is hazy. He seems to be defining "sequence" as a phrase's melodic structure:

"Fig. A2. - Now the phrase has been filled in with added syncopation (dotted quarter and eighth in the first bar), added sequence in the second bar ... Much of the original sequence remains, thereby retaining its original strength and coherence.

Fig. A3. - This is still related to the original Fig. A1 but has undergone further transformation. There are now ascending and descending scale sequences in bars 1 and 2."

[Mick-7]

Yes, I think this is pretty accurate. Think of it like in varying degrees of sameness. From exact repetitions --> "related". It's sort of a key core concept of the book underpinning the "rightness" of what Jimmy does. It undergirds another concept later, "related but different". What is that thing that does that?

There is a dive into this particular thing here: I've queued a specific example discussion of a neighbor tone sequence.

So here (in the video) it's viewed as sequential in that there is melodic shape repeated up a step, then an added wrinkle of changing the rhythm to reduce the monotony. I think there is a subtle dance he always strives for: coherence without obviousness.

Hope this helps. Jon

Thank you, Jon, but as I mentioned, "sequence" appears to have a different, broader meaning in Chapter 1.

Oh, I see that Chapter 3 goes into the topic of sequence in greater detail, but in Chapter 1 it is confusing.

[Rob MacKillop]

It’s great to have you dropping by, Jon. Thanks both for your contribution here, and of course for the book, which must have taken a lot of your time to put together. Appreciated!

I actually watched your video yesterday, but it’s a little ahead of where I’m at in the book, so thought I’d come back to it in a couple of weeks. We’re not all at the same page in the book - some have just bought it, while others have had it for a while. The general consensus, though, was to start with the first chapter and move forward at our own pace. As you know, it’s not a case of reading the idea, understanding it, then moving on. It’s more about reading the idea, understanding it, then embedding it in your playing - and that last thing will take longer with some of us than others, which is natural.

So, I’ll get to chapter three a little later, and can look back at this discussion then. Please pop in again when you feel like it.