Complexity in jazz, story of depression, etc.

[jzucker]

I’ve been wanting to write about complexity in jazz for a while.
As some of you know, I went through an extreme bout of depression back in September. I was halfway through recording my second album when it hit. For nearly three months, I couldn’t play. I couldn’t write. The music just stopped.
By late November — through therapy, Wellbutrin, and yes, the therapeutic purchase of a new guitar ? — I started climbing out of the rabbit hole.
I bought a Suhr Scott Henderson Strat and found myself drawn back to the music of my youth: Hendrix, Clapton, that whole era. I began relearning Hendrix tunes — Castles Made of Sand, Little Wing, Angel, Wait Until Tomorrow, tracks from Electric Ladyland. I even started singing again, something I hadn’t done in thirty years.
Somewhere in there, a third album started taking shape. It leans more rock — some classic rock, some Hendrix-inspired, some fusion-tinged — but all still within my voice.
And in the process of relearning this music, something clicked. Something that had always nagged at me but that I’d never fully confronted.
As jazz musicians, we often play for other jazz musicians. Not for the audience. And because of that, we spend our energy on complex rhythms, layered harmonies, intricate melodic ideas.
But working on this more direct material has made me wonder:
Is the complexity demanded by the music?
Or do we insert it — consciously or unconsciously — to prove something? To signal how advanced we are?
In the last two songs I’ve written, I can feel myself drifting slightly back toward the jazz side. They’re harmonically denser, though still more accessible than the ECM-leaning material I usually write. But when it comes time to record guitar solos, I feel this pull to make them complex.
And I keep asking myself:
Is it needed?
That’s the question I’m putting out there. Have you ever wrestled with that aspect of jazz — the tension between expression and complexity?
I don’t have an answer. I only know what runs through my head.
Curious to hear yours.

[BWV]

Pat Metheny said in an interview he writes/plays the kind of music he wants to hear as a listener, sounded like good advice

[mr. beaumont]

It's weird...I've been in a few situations in my life where I've played music I'd never listen to for enjoyment...but the people I was playing with were good people and good musicians, and it was fun. That's probably the underlying factor.

There's nothing wrong with being a true jobber...but I think if you asked 100 players, 99 would tell you they picked up the guitar because it was fun.

I'm happy to hear you've found the fun again.

[Christian Miller]

Sorry to hear about your rough patch Jack.

I think they are great questions to ask. I think asking them is more important than coming up with a neat answer.

And we all hear the same voices telling us what we ‘should’ be doing. If only it was easy to screen them out. I suspect it’s possible to practice this?


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[emanresu]

Hm. When I restarted with jazz, and focusing on improvisation, I did it with a solid goal in mind.
I wanted to be able to play guitar for my own enjoyment when I was 60,70,80 years old. Like for all the rest of my life.
Assumed that it would take maybe 10 years for develop, then the rest is gonna be fun and games. It has been 17 years now, 47 years old.. developing I don't know what.

There has to be a time when this happens... for me too
Congraz to you

[GuyBoden]

When I re-started playing Jazz Standards again about 3 years ago, it was because I was hit by a car whilst cycling and was recovering from my leg/hip injuries. Playing Jazz guitar helped to get me through this time. But, I was much fitter when I cycled 100K rides than sat playing guitar.

[John A.]

I’ve been wanting to write about complexity in jazz for a while.
As some of you know, I went through an extreme bout of depression back in September. I was halfway through recording my second album when it hit. For nearly three months, I couldn’t play. I couldn’t write. The music just stopped.
By late November — through therapy, Wellbutrin, and yes, the therapeutic purchase of a new guitar ? — I started climbing out of the rabbit hole.
I bought a Suhr Scott Henderson Strat and found myself drawn back to the music of my youth: Hendrix, Clapton, that whole era. I began relearning Hendrix tunes — Castles Made of Sand, Little Wing, Angel, Wait Until Tomorrow, tracks from Electric Ladyland. I even started singing again, something I hadn’t done in thirty years.
Somewhere in there, a third album started taking shape. It leans more rock — some classic rock, some Hendrix-inspired, some fusion-tinged — but all still within my voice.
And in the process of relearning this music, something clicked. Something that had always nagged at me but that I’d never fully confronted.

Sorry to hear about your struggles, and glad that you're doing better and headed in a good direction personally and musically.

As jazz musicians, we often play for other jazz musicians. Not for the audience. And because of that, we spend our energy on complex rhythms, layered harmonies, intricate melodic ideas.

I might push back at that a little. Jazz musicians are a valid audience to try to reach, and there are also non-musician audiences that respond to complex music. If the music you love to make doesn't reach audiences other than these you probably won't make much money, but if performing it makes you happy and you have other income, so be it.

I also think that even relatively unschooled audiences pick up on the emotions and enthusiasm you project through your music and the energy level of the performance. They also pick up on genuine expression vs artifice. So if what you are playing is real, is you, and presented with the intention of conveying that, it'll work for a lot of listeners, including ones who don't understand much about music.

All that that said, if all you do is stuff that's very harmonically dense, technically demanding, compositionally complex, blistering tempos, etc., that gets fatiguing for pretty much everyone to listen to for an entire performance. IMO, performances and recordings should strive to balance texture, degrees of difficulty, vibes, tempos, styles, etc. It's good to include a little bit for everyone (even the guitar nerds at the front tables).

But working on this more direct material has made me wonder:
Is the complexity demanded by the music?
Or do we insert it — consciously or unconsciously — to prove something? To signal how advanced we are?

I think some people do insert difficulty for the sake of difficulty, and to a degree it's part of the culture of jazz --e.g., cutting contests, playing Donna Lee at crazy tempos, etc., as proof that you can hang with the big boys (or to exclude the people who can't hang). But for some people really complex stuff is just what they do, and they hear/feel/play it without consciously trying to make it complex. I think overall the key is self-examination and awareness of your own aesthetic.

In the last two songs I’ve written, I can feel myself drifting slightly back toward the jazz side. They’re harmonically denser, though still more accessible than the ECM-leaning material I usually write. But when it comes time to record guitar solos, I feel this pull to make them complex.
And I keep asking myself:
Is it needed?
That’s the question I’m putting out there. Have you ever wrestled with that aspect of jazz — the tension between expression and complexity?
I don’t have an answer. I only know what runs through my head.
Curious to hear yours.

It has taken me a while to accept this and acknowledge my limitations, but I think I just sound better playing more simply and lyrically and without stretching myself too much technically. I yam what I yam, and when I forget that and try to record an "impressive" solo, it usually doesn't work.

[jazznylon]

Good to hear you escaped from the darkness, for me it took years before realizing what I felt wasn't normal (and thats with a lack of playing guitar). Enough was enough and finally I got the help I needed.

Regarding the music side I find it hard to imagine complex musical thoughts in my head (let alone express them) even though I can intellectualize it. My habits/intuition keep me honest at the moment. If I try to fit in a cool lick at the moment it usually sounds forced unfortunatedly

[Ingo Lee]

Thank you Jack for sharing your story, I think it's important to us for several reasons obviously.

It kind of reminds me of the story about when Miles went to hear Sly and the Family Stone at a large outdoor concert when Sly was at the height of his popularity. Supposedly Miles said afterward: "Anything that makes that many people so happy for so long has to be right."

And so around that time Miles began his journey into electric fusion which disappointed many of his old fans but made lots of new ones. So was this a calculated effort at making more money for Miles or was it a truly artistic change of direction? I don't know of course but there's another story (supposedly) told by Keith Jarrett.

"After the electric switch I asked Miles to play one of the old standards and he said, 'I can't do that, it hurts too much.'

Maybe a case of, never look back? Me, I like to listen to a lot of different stuff.

[RLetson]

With apologies to John 14:2, in my father's joint are many side rooms, and all of them can jump and swing, yea, even unto the ones where Kenny G plays for the squares (like my late father). And (when necessary) they can also contemplate. If there's complexity in the music, I'm not sure that the body much cares--though the mind has its dances as well.

Tonight I will go listen to a bunch of local guys who love to play and I'll sit with a bunch of regulars who enjoy what they hear, even though only a couple of them are what I would call sophisticated listeners. They do like the tunes, though. My own listening is a bit technical and analytical and not always completely approving--nevertheless I'm there most Thursdays, hearing players who are playing for the love of it.

As for the more personal side of Jack's post: Depression is neurological weather that (with any luck and the right kind of intervention) blows through and clears up. I suspect that music (or any other absorbing pursuit) can be a rope tossed down the well to help climb out into the light (sorry for the metaphor switch). The trick seems to be finding the willingness to grab the rope.

[pamosmusic]

Sorry to hear about the rough winter, Jack. Glad you're doing better.

Definitely -- the music I play is jazz. The music I write all tends to be really simple harmonies. A couple chords. Sometimes strummable. Who knows.

[wolflen]

Thank you Jack for sharing your story, I think it's important to us for several reasons obviously.

It kind of reminds me of the story about when Miles went to hear Sly and the Family Stone at a large outdoor concert when Sly was at the height of his popularity. Supposedly Miles said afterward: "Anything that makes that many people so happy for so long has to be right."

And so around that time Miles began his journey into electric fusion which disappointed many of his old fans but made lots of new ones. So was this a calculated effort at making more money for Miles or was it a truly artistic change of direction? .

I just read an interesting review of Bitches Brew .. it had excerpts of Stone saying something about Miles burning bridges so he couldn't go back.

Depression is recognized as a major disorder to millions of Americans. To some it is disabling.

Years back I went through a mild case where I just stopped playing music. I did all my other life requirements well..Work, social activities and all..but the guitar
was collecting dust. This went on for several months..Then one day I had enough..and slowly began to move my fingers over the strings again.

Jack..glad you moved on. That Suhr/Henderson is a very hot ax. Dont forget Jimi's Hey Joe the very best version

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Jack, I’m so glad you’re feeling better, that’s the main thing. The entire conundrum of complexity is very real, but in some regards it’s outside of our control. We pursue the music that feels right to us, that we find meaning in and communicates from within. Regardless of motives, the complexity is really a listener’s issue. If they’re unfamiliar or inexperienced it may sound very complicated where someone else might find it’s straight down the pike simple. Everything’s complicated when you’re first exposed or starting out. It’s simple for the master. The only thing different is the set of ears.

[Rolf Field]

Hej there. Been there too a couple of times. I don't have the skills you have on guitar but i know a good blooming depression. Had some therapists and some medication. worked great. But in the basis it's just coping and cognition.
i was busy meeting expactations in every area. Not just while playing the guitar. So i learned (still learning) to do what i like ( or think) is important. Still struggle with some insecurity , but the conscious choice to give a shit about others helps quite a bit.
And after the last depression found myself a guitar teacher. And what he says is this. "It's not about the skills, it's about music". It's impressive some guitarists can do on a piece of wood but you can be touched by simple music performed well.

[ragman1]

Is the complexity demanded by the music?
Or do we insert it — consciously or unconsciously — to prove something? To signal how advanced we are?
In the last two songs I’ve written, I can feel myself drifting slightly back toward the jazz side. They’re harmonically denser, though still more accessible than the ECM-leaning material I usually write. But when it comes time to record guitar solos, I feel this pull to make them complex.
And I keep asking myself:
Is it needed?
That’s the question I’m putting out there. Have you ever wrestled with that aspect of jazz — the tension between expression and complexity?
I don’t have an answer. I only know what runs through my head.
Curious to hear yours.

I find it depends on the tune. Obviously also on the player too but personally I find that the nature of the tune will demand either complexity or simplicity. One has to play it a lot and see what comes out of it, what one is drawn to.

Sometimes it's not predictable. One may have a fairly straightforward tune but then find that a nice straightforward solo doesn't sound quite right. If that happens then I tend to introduce complexity into it, i.e. more alternate or slightly outside sounds. And the reverse is true too, that what may appear to demand a complex solo sounds better if it's played fairly simply, but using the right notes, of course.

To be honest, I think a lot depends on how much attention one is paying to the tune. If one's distracted, and one has a great deal of complex knowledge, then one can find oneself popping it in 'just because it's there', if you see what I mean.

So, a lot depends on one's approach, on the state of mind one is in when playing or practicing. There are people, of course, who want to throw anything they can think of at everything they do but that's like over-spicing simple dishes, it becomes careless and counter-productive.

Discrimination is good, if one can do it :-)

[alltunes]

Expression vs Complexity

I don’t compose in the style of jazz so can’t comment from that angle. I have written some tunes in the “new grass” style and there a little complexity helps differentiate things. But as a jazz listener Frank Vignola’s shows at Birdland immediately comes to mind. To me that presentation is all about expression or at least it comes across that way. An expression of melody. A style of jazz that should/could be more popular. Like it once was.

Glad to hear you are on a better path and thanks for sharing your experience.

[Sam Sherry]

Jack, thank you for speaking up and it's always good to see someone pointed back toward positivity.

Making the simple complicated is commonplace. Making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that’s creative.

[ruger9]

Great thread!

For me it's probably about JOY - which isn't exactly the same as fun. But it also depends on the situation:

Playing at home- alone, it's about joy & peace. Not about fun. Enjoyment, yes... connecting with whatever emotional content I have at the time and merging it with the instrument. It's like therapy. And I also find it hard to play when depressed; for one, I don't want to play depressing music*, and two, if I have no joy in me, the playing will not bring it out.

*interesting aside: it is said that "when you have the blues, you listen to the blues, then you don't have the blues no more", and I have experienced that, many many times over the years.

As for FUN: that's my cover band. If it's not FUN, I'm not interested. There is a little improvisation going on, but it's really about playing FUN music for US and others to have FUN to. On the gig Saturday, we had so many people up dancing and singing along, I really can't describe how cool that is. We've had gigs where the band played better but no one was sharing in the energy with us (not up dancing and singing), and they are a drag. The whole live music thing, for me, is about shared experience... not just "playing for listeners". Of course the jazz genre is different, it's not like blues or rock where people will get up and dance and sing along usually...

[lawson-stone]

I think "complexity" is a tough term to operationalize concretely. Complexity is a feature in music, not a "bug." A symphony is complex, multiply voiced, multi-layered, but overwhelmingly beautiful and moving. A lone instrument simply playing a melody can also be devastatingly moving. A Bach two-part invention is, on one level, not "complex" because it's just two voices, but the way they move is often surprising and counter-intuitive.

So I think that complexity in and of itself is just a feature of music, available to be taken up if the artist has a multi-layered, maybe conflicting, vision to convey. I think also (just me now) that single voice, or single mood, is not necessarily "simple." The blues, for example, confines itself to pretty much a single emotional key, but it's far from "simple." What it is, is "deep." Likewise, a multi-voiced, complex composition can fall flat and be shallow.

You noted motive: do we play complex stuff just to impress other musicians. I am conflicted about how much the musician's motive even matters. Think of the powerful music of so many of our heroes, who were train-wrecks as people. The albums people performed on because they were compelled by contract and angry... and that anger somehow fueled the music. Motive is a slippery and elusive thing, and I"ve stopped thinking about it, to be honest. I just want to play music that is definitely jazz (whatever that means!) and is appealing to hear. I also just love the guitar, period. To me it's not just a tool, it's not just the thing I know how to play, I have loved the guitar since my earliest recollection. No other instrument moves me like this.

So anyhow, that's my take on some of the issues you raise.

I'm so sorry for the hard stretch you've endured and so happy you seized upon every means of healing and recovery at your disposal. I'm glad you're back, but I also think that these dark times shape us, and our art, in ways we might not ever really be able to articulate. Maybe the idea that all good jazz has a good dose of the blues in it is about more, much more, than mere musicianship.

You remain one of my favorites, Jack, and I wish you all the best in whatever music you make. I know, whether or not it's "jazz," the important thing is that it will be "JACK."

[lammie200]

...
You remain one of my favorites, Jack, and I wish you all the best in whatever music you make. I know, whether or not it's "jazz," the important thing is that it will be "JACK."

I'll second that. I appreciate your stuff, Jack. You gotta be you. Depression probably makes that difficult and I am glad you are on the mend.

My journey has always been about finding out what my capabilities are that coincide with my feelings. But, one thing that has been top of mind lately with me is that when I hear something very simple by an artist that I like that isn't really jazz music, is if whether what I do is too complicated to get a similar groove. I don't play out so I am always looking for that objectivity to understand what I create. But it is still me and I am the one composing and playing. One thing that I find fascinating is to go through the process of simplifying passages that are complex and making simple passages more complex. For me it's just another way to see call and response. And I do try to see things in terms of call and response. It doesn't matter if the music is simple or complex. If it isn't call and response I don't think it communicates even if I am the only one listening.