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I'm a beginning jazz guitar player. I've been taking lessons for about a year and I coming along OK albeit kind of slowly. My instructor is very good. My goal is to be "fluent" in swing and bebop. Something to keep in mind is I'm 75 y/o. That may be relevant, maybe not. However, I'm in good health and sound mind and very motivated. Almost all I've learned so far is theory and almost no music. I want to learn theory but I feel I should be learning some basic jazz songs such as "Autumn Leaves" by now. I've been teaching myself some easier jazz standards and I'm starting learn how to transpose.
Anyway, I do have the ability to hear jazz phrasing in my head and make it come out my fingers...and make it sound like jazz. I have a very good ear. That's likely due to having played in rock and blues bands, on and off, for 60+ years. I'm also a pretty good bluegrass flat picker. But I feel like I'm lacking some guidance. My instructor wants me to get a firm foundation in theory before taking on jazz songs. I fully understand where he is coming from. But as I mentioned above, it's been over a year and the only person that's taught me any songs is me. I would consider changing instructors except that I live in a rural area and the next nearest instructor is about an hour and a half away. Any suggestions?
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05-02-2025 06:43 PM
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Get a different instructor,maybe online if possible.In a years time he should have had you working on some songs by now.Sounds like he is stringing you along.
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Yeah learning theory through songs is the move. A pretty rudimentary grasp of theory — diatonic chords, ins and outs of the major scale — is kind of all you need to make sense of most jazz tunes, at least pre 1960. And you might find a few folks who say you don’t even need that.
Originally Posted by jumpnblues
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A year of theory? What exactly did that cover?
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So you are presumably a competent rock, blues and bluegrass guitarist looking to expand your range to jazz. First off, good for you! And you found a teacher- also good for you. But you are right in that you've got to learn tunes to be able to play with anyone else. Usually theory is taught in the context of tunes- analyzing the song in terms of the theoretical underpinnings (ii-V-I, modulation, side stepping, etc.). If that's what you want to learn, then out that on the table with your teacher. You're not following a music school curriculum or pedagogy, you're an adult learner adding a skill set.
In the short term, you can learn a lot of tunes via YouTube backing tracks, charts, etc.
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Sure, ask him why he's still only doing theory after a year and no tunes. Confront him. Originally Posted by jumpnblues
In fact, you should have brought this up long ago. Ridiculous.
Don't be weak, sort it out.
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I agree, sounds like it’s time to learn some tunes. And if at all possible, find a jazz jam session, even if it’s a drive, to get some playing experience with others. In a way, jazz is a social music, and playing with others might help join theory with practice.
All the best on your jazz quest!
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This situation is hard to explain; please eliminate the
possibility the teacher's a musician but not a guitarist
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At what, theory? Originally Posted by jumpnblues
I've only taken guitar lessons from professional musicians and never for months, let alone a year, and theory only came up on a "need to know" basis, i.e., when the information was applicable to playing and improvising music. I went to them to become a better musician, not a music theorist.
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If you hear jazz phrases to tunes like Autumn Leaves in your head, you are way ahead of the game. You should work on connecting those ideas to your fingers. When you are playing a tune, there is no time for theory and it sounds like you have the gift of having musical ideas.
Any theory you learn is only for “practice time” not performance time. It is just to feed your musical imagination.
If your teacher is not giving you tunes to work on, I’d get a different teacher. Good luck!
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What did that cover? 15% of the instructor's rent! Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I say, just get some lead sheets and learn some of the common jazz standards. Put the chords into a looper, play the melody and then solo over the changes.Last edited by jameslovestal; 05-03-2025 at 07:17 PM.
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I agree with those who say it's time to learn some tunes. Studying theory in a vacuum is not as helpful as coordinating that study with ear training and practical performance.
If your teacher won't work with you on some tunes, it's time to change teachers. You can study privately with well-known jazz guitarists over the internet. Since you have mechanical skills, the ability to play by ear, and some theory knowledge, there's no reason you couldn't get quite a bit out of that kind of interaction.
Good luck!
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Dunno. A lot of musicians in general take refuge in theory because they know it already.
how many tunes you know and how well you know them is another way of saying how long you’ve been playing and how serious you’ve been over that time.
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OP, I don't think you mentioned reading as a skill you have or are working on with your current teacher. IMO, learning to read standard notation has many benefits that will affect your jazz journey positively:
- you can communicate and understand theoretical concepts more easily
- you can learn or recall new tunes more easily by looking at lead sheets
- you can transcribe anything you like (including your own ideas) for future reference
Not everyone on this forum feels that reading is a necessary skill. Let's please not hijack this thread to rehash that discussion, which has been argued over many times here. (Just google "jazzguitar.be reading" to see those threads.)
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I asked what was covered in a year of theory. The boundaries of what is considered theory are unclear to me. Is this all didactic, like reading Nettles and Graf? Does it include playing the examples? Playing them in 12 keys? Does it include playing over chord progressions? I just can't glean exactly what the OP's lessons encompass.
Andres Varady proved that you can make the cover of GP as a jazz guitarist while not knowing things like the notes in a C scale. He said so in the interview. Of course, not everybody can do that. He just proves that it's possible.
My guess is that a year of lessons on theory would probably cover more theory (depending on how you define it) than Wes or Charlie Christian or Tal Farlow knew. Iirc, a student explained modes to Joe Pass. Warren Nunes had some theory of his own design, but I don't think he bothered with the sort of thing in books on theory, for the most part.
So, depending on what was actually covered, maybe a year of theory makes sense, but I'm inclined to doubt it. Theory is supposed to support praxis. Meaning, it seems like it would be better to pick a tune and then show the student how knowing bits of theory allows him to play it better.
What would it be like to be a master of theory but never have played a tune? Autumn Leaves gets counted off, now it's your solo and you do what? You know the scale for the first chord and you do what with that knowledge? Or maybe you notice that the first three chords are a ii V I. You think, Warren Nunes would just play in Bb. Somebody else would think C dorian, F mixo Bb ionian. Should I use triads, hexatonics? Which way am I going to alter the F7? Maybe I should dive into modal exchange? Is the solo really going to sound like jazz?
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I imagine a year of theory would cover the basics and begin to introduce some additional things beyond the basics. It might look something like this...
Rhythm
- time signature
- beats per measure
- note that takes the beat
- counting
- foot tappng
Key
- key signature
- flats
- sharps
- major
- minor
Notes
- letter names
- accidentals
- scales
- degrees
- modes
Chords
- chord names
- chord tones
- extensions
- alterations
- intervals
- inversions
- drop forms
- functions
- voice leading
- substitutions
Tunes
- verse
- chorus
- song form
- intros
- 1st and 2nd endings
- outros
Methods
- music notation
- lead sheets
- charts
- Roman numerals
- fingering
(...none of which are in my mind when playing.)
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In the workshops I had with Joe Pass, he only discussed theory in relation to the harmony/chord progressions of tunes. I don't recall if Howard Roberts discussed theory in his workshop, it was very guitar-centric. They both started out playing by ear and learned the theory later. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I could teach you all the theory you need to get by and it would take half a sheet of paper.
Major scale, 3 grips to cover major minor and dominant. Everything else you learn when a tune calls for it. It does no good to learn theory in a vacuum.
Fire the teacher.
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I’m teaching a class on some repertoire stuff and I did a theory crash course in the first month. I assumed folks knew notes on the staff but after that I ended up using four weeks and maybe eight pages lol Originally Posted by AllanAllen
To be fair — I meant it to be a resource for folks to refer to down the line so I rushed through some of it.
to also be fair — I probably included some stuff that wasn’t strictly speaking necessary
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Theory should follow and explain things you're already hearing and playing, not the other way around. Then it becomes meaningful, easy to grasp, and of musical use.
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Most of the items listed by Paul were covered by my first guitar teacher in about 6 months. I was a rank beginner. Belwin I, Mel Bay II, Rhythms Complete, some clarinet books and chord melodies for tunes in my fakebook (the old cardex one). Don't Blame Me, Moonglow, Stars Fell, Stompin' At the Savoy etc. When he used a new (to me) chord, he'd diagram it, circle the root, and I'd learn it in 12 keys. Voice leading was part of every one. I picked up the math behind chord construction and solo-related stuff sometime later.
Of course, all of this was applied immediately to the guitar. I don't think I'd call it just "theory".
I then spent many hours playing every tune in the first couple of hundred pages (where most of the familiar ones were), learning melody, chords and, often, lyrics. A lot of that was within the first year.
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You guys are all awesome! Thank you so much for your responses. I will be following some of the suggestions you provided. I will also be placing more emphasis on learning songs. I think that will give me more motivation during practice sessions. I'll continue studying theory but there will definitely be more time spent on learning songs, improvising, and learning chord melodies. Thank you again!
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BTW, I'm planning on having a sit-down with my instructor and discuss where I'd like to go from here. Mainly learning more songs. I'm not sure how much more theory I need. But my main focus will be learning songs. I'll keep my instructor for now. Although there'll have to be some changes.
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If your teacher will accommodate you to get some tunes going and some practical music then that's good. Ime you kind of have to fire teachers sometimes. Location is irrelevant these days as you can find your perfect teacher online. It's a zoom call, super easy, just as effective, and actually saves time.
But yes, you need to be working on music. One thing I highly recommend to start sounding musical is memorize and play at least 1 transcription, bonus if you get into it and take on more. It doesn't matter if you pick up the transcription from sheet music/tutorial or if you learn it by ear. The most important part is learning it and playing it so you can internalize legit playing. Although some ongoing ear work is helpful.
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