Hexatonics - Triad Pairs To Go

[HexatonicsApp]

Hey folks,

I'm new here and need some feedback from this community.

Calling all jazz guitarists to check out this app. It's called "Hexatonics" and you can find it on the Apple App Store. Please let me know what you think, any feedback is greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Oliver

https://youtube.com/shorts/ruTppkrpS0o?feature=share

[jzucker]

if it's not generating hexatonic scales, I'd consider renaming it.

[GuyBoden]

Jerry Bergonzi "Hexatonic scales are six note scales. One way to create a hexatonic scale is to combine
the notes of two triads that don't have any common tones. "

[HexatonicsApp]

@jzucker: thanks for your input. How would you name it? I'm open to suggestions at this point.

@guyboden: Jerry is my hero! I work with Schott & Advance Music here in Mainz and love all his books. This app is inspired by his teachings, hence the name

[pamosmusic]

Name seems okay to me?

So it seems like you pick a harmony and it gives you potential pairs. Does it do the reverse? Like can you pick a pair and have it give you the harmonic possibilities?

[HexatonicsApp]

Name seems okay to me?

So it seems like you pick a harmony and it gives you potential pairs. Does it do the reverse? Like can you pick a pair and have it give you the harmonic possibilities?

You're spot on, that's exactly how the app works. I tried implementing the reverse, but to be honest there are just too many options for a triad pair like say G/A:

Em7, A7, Gmaj7(#11), G7(#11), Bm7(b13), C#7(alt), C#m7(b5), Dm(maj7), Fmaj7(#5), F#7sus4(b9), Bmin7(b5), E7sus4(b9), etc.

It's much harder to navigate and the app logic becomes quite cluttered.

On the other hand, Bergonzi's book on hexatonics is written that way, and it works super great for the content he offers (patterns, playalongs, open-ended harmonic approach). Highly recommended if you want to dig into one type of triad pair and its applications.

[jzucker]

@jzucker: thanks for your input. How would you name it? I'm open to suggestions at this point.

@guyboden: Jerry is my hero! I work with Schott & Advance Music here in Mainz and love all his books. This app is inspired by his teachings, hence the name

If the app generates hexatonics, the name is fine. I was under the (mis)understanding that it was a generic chord/scale app generating 7-tone diatonic type scales. If that's the case, I would call it something else.

[ragman1]

I think - in fact I'm perfectly sure - that the word hexatonic is being misused. In short, it's the wrong name for what the app provides.

Three notes are a triad. And, yes, two triads are six notes. But they are not a 'hexatonic'. There's no such thing. When you call the app Hexatonics that's the plural of something that doesn't exist by itself.

The word hexatonic only applies to a scale, the hexatonic scale. That scale is not made by adding the two triads together but of rearranging their notes in their sequential scalar order.

So F/G is FAC and GBD. But FACGBD is not a hexatonic scale. The heaxatonic scale is F G A B C D.

So whereas your app, which gives the names of compatible triads, may imply that each pair can provide a hexatonic scale, it does not actually do so.

So I'd maintain the name of your app is essentially wrong. It's a misunderstanding and misuse of the the word hexatonic. There's no such thing as a 'hexatonic', there are just triads, triad pairs, and hexatonic scales.

[pamosmusic]

I think - in fact I'm perfectly sure - that the word hexatonic is being misused. In short, it's the wrong name for what the app provides.

Three notes are a triad. And, yes, two triads are six notes. But they are not a 'hexatonic'. There's no such thing.

The word hexatonic only applies to a scale, the hexatonic scale. That scale is not made of adding the two triads together but of rearranging their notes in their sequential order.

So F/G is FAC and GBD. But FACGBD is not a hexatonic scale. The heaxatonic scale is F G A B C D.

So whereas your app, which gives the names of compatible triads, may imply that each pair can provide a hexatonic scale, it does not actually do so.

So I'd maintain the name of your app is essentially wrong. It's a misunderstanding and misuse of the the word hexatonic. There's no such thing as a 'hexatonic', there are just triads, triad pairs, and hexatonic scales.

this is weird and wrong.

a hexatonic scale is any scale with six notes. So there are seven that you can derive from different arrangements of the major scale and a triad pair that can illustrate each one. So it's the proper use of hexatonic scale. This is a pretty common usage of triad pairs. Jerry Bergonzi, Vic Juris, Dave Liebman, and Walt Weiskopf use it the same way, so far as I'm aware.

If you're complaining that he uses the word "hexatonic" rather than the phrase "hexatonic scale" then you should deal with all those heathen guitar players misusing "pentatonic" first. It would be a much bigger problem.

Though I'm guessing we don't have much issue with that ...

[ragman1]

You don't understand. Read it again.

[pamosmusic]

You don't understand. Read it again.

You're saying a triad pair isn’t a hexatonic scale.

FAC and GBD equal FACGBD and not FGABCD.

Which is absurd.

If I play C E G D F A E G B and called it a major scale, you’d tell me it’s not, I guess?

[HexatonicsApp]

Hexatonic to me has its roots in Ancient Greek music theory:

hexa - six
tonic - pitch

so it describes a collection of six notes - not a chord, not a scale, but simply six distinct pitches within an octave. The term is open to interpretation, and I find it inviting for musicians and composers to put their own spin on it. It's not my intention to mislead anybody with that app name, which is why I've provided a detailed description in the App Store.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the app! If you have any feedback regarding its content or functionality - or ideas for improvement - they're always greatly appreciated. Thanks

[Mick-7]

Frankly, I don't see the see the point of this. If one knows a scale, one will know what triads/chords can be built from it, and all of the triads within the scale that can be combined. Doing the reverse of this, i.e., combining various triads to form scales, is making a simple process complicated.

Furthermore, most chords are not exclusive to a single scale, for example, you call a min.7 chord a Dorian scale chord, which is true in the key of C Major (IIm7), but it's also a phrygian scale chord (IIIm7 in Bb major), and an Aeolian scale chord (VIm7 in F Major).

[ragman1]

Hexatonic to me has its roots in Ancient Greek music theory:

hexa - six
tonic - pitch

so it describes a collection of six notes - not a chord, not a scale, but simply six distinct pitches within an octave. The term is open to interpretation, and I find it inviting for musicians and composers to put their own spin on it. It's not my intention to mislead anybody with that app name, which is why I've provided a detailed description in the App Store.

Actually, I don't think the term is open to interpretation. 'Putting a spin on it' may be fun but no good if you're trying to accurately convey something technical. The word scale means a series of notes in sequential order from a particular note to its octave. Putting the notes in any other order and calling it a scale is wrong. It's a set of notes taken from the scale, which is different.

You've heard the phrase 'The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog'. You wouldn't claim that is the English alphabet! It certainly contains all the letters in the alphabet but it's not the alphabet as it's usually understood.

I've seen the YouTube short and there's a sort of cascading display of the app. I couldn't see any mention of hexatonics or hexatonic scales except the name of the app. There may be some sort of explanation (which I haven't seen) in the description but let's hope that users will read it and understand it.

I don't see anything wrong with your app, by the way, but I think the title is misleading. Not that I think you are trying to mislead anyone, don't misunderstand me, but a lot of players understand the words triad and triad pairs but not how they relate to hexatonic scales and their use.

[kris]

I have a book written by Walt Weiskopf "Intervalic Improvisation" - he wrote it about 30 years ago.
I recommend it.

[HexatonicsApp]

Frankly, I don't see the see the point of this. If one knows a scale, one will know what triads/chords can be built from it, and all of the triads within the scale that can be combined. Doing the reverse of this, i.e., combining various triads to form scales, is making a simple process complicated.

Furthermore, most chords are not exclusive to a single scale, for example, you call a min.7 chord a Dorian scale chord, which is true in the key of C Major (IIm7), but it's also a phrygian scale chord (IIIm7 in Bb major), and an Aeolian scale chord (VIm7 in F Major).

The chord variations in the app are intentionally organized around one or two specific scales for clarity. For example, I’ve used min7(b13) to represent Aeolian. However, I haven’t yet added triad pairs specifically for Phrygian min7—thanks for suggesting that!


The goal of this app is simple: I’ve always wanted a tool that clearly lays out which triad pairs work over specific chords. It’s all about unlocking the full range of colors and extensions available in harmony. My hope is that this app will provide the same kind of insights and creative freedom to others that it’s given me.

[Christian Miller]

When jazz musicians say 'scale' they often mean 'pitch set.'

[HexatonicsApp]

Actually, I don't think the term is open to interpretation. 'Putting a spin on it' may be fun but no good if you're trying to accurately convey something technical. The word scale means a series of notes in sequential order from a particular note to its octave. Putting the notes in any other order and calling it a scale is wrong. It's a set of notes taken from the scale, which is different.

You've heard the phrase 'The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog'. You wouldn't claim that is the English alphabet! It certainly contains all the letters in the alphabet but it's not the alphabet as it's usually understood.

I've seen the YouTube short and there's a sort of cascading display of the app. I couldn't see any mention of hexatonics or hexatonic scales except the name of the app. There may be some sort of explanation (which I haven't seen) in the description but let's hope that users will read it and understand it.

I don't see anything wrong with your app, by the way, but I think the title is misleading. Not that I think you are trying to mislead anyone, don't misunderstand me, but a lot of players understand the words triad and triad pairs but not how they relate to hexatonic scales and their use.

Thanks so much for checking out the video—I really appreciate it! I was hoping the title might serve as a signpost for musicians and composers already familiar with the term. I first learned about hexatonics through Jerry Bergonzi (I’m a saxophonist by profession), and I’ve always associated the term primarily with triad pairs rather than scales.


It’s really interesting to hear how others relate to these concepts, especially how the term hexatonics connects to scales and chords in music theory. That’s a perspective I’ll definitely think about more as I continue developing the app. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts!

[ragman1]

Thanks so much for checking out the video—I really appreciate it! I was hoping the title might serve as a signpost for musicians and composers already familiar with the term. I first learned about hexatonics through Jerry Bergonzi (I’m a saxophonist by profession), and I’ve always associated the term primarily with triad pairs rather than scales.


It’s really interesting to hear how others relate to these concepts, especially how the term hexatonics connects to scales and chords in music understtheory. That’s a perspective I’ll definitely think about more as I continue developing the app. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts!

Well, it was fairly intriguing. Personally, I don't use a lot of triads per se because I use other ways of getting the same results. Nor do I use hexatonic scales for the same reason. Nevertheless I understand the attraction.

I see your app already has a very good rating so the best of luck with it. And at 99 cents who can complain?

[pamosmusic]

Actually, I don't think the term is open to interpretation. 'Putting a spin on it' may be fun but no good if you're trying to accurately convey something technical. The word scale means a series of notes in sequential order from a particular note to its octave. Putting the notes in any other order and calling it a scale is wrong. It's a set of notes taken from the scale, which is different.

You've heard the phrase 'The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog'. You wouldn't claim that is the English alphabet! It certainly contains all the letters in the alphabet but it's not the alphabet as it's usually understood.

I've seen the YouTube short and there's a sort of cascading display of the app. I couldn't see any mention of hexatonics or hexatonic scales except the name of the app. There may be some sort of explanation (which I haven't seen) in the description but let's hope that users will read it and understand it.

I don't see anything wrong with your app, by the way, but I think the title is misleading. Not that I think you are trying to mislead anyone, don't misunderstand me, but a lot of players understand the words triad and triad pairs but not how they relate to hexatonic scales and their use.

This bears essentially no resemblance to how jazz musicians (and most other musicians) talk about and use scales.

When you’re using a scale, you’re saying that you’re bound to play those notes in order or it’s not the scale anymore?

[ragman1]

This bears essentially no resemblance to how jazz musicians (and most other musicians) talk about and use scales.

Maybe, but I don't care. What they do is what they do.

When you’re using a scale, you’re saying that you’re bound to play those notes in order or it’s not the scale anymore?

Okay, I can see I'll have to talk very slowly...

You've heard of people being accused of running up and down scales as opposed to improvising creatively? That means they just go up the notes all in the right order too much and it sounds lame.

But when they use all the notes diatonic to the key or chord then they're not running up and down scales. You see? So, yes, when notes derived from a scale are used melodically then they're not playing scales, they're playing in a particular key. Which is not the same as 'playing a scale'.

con·sec·u·tive: following one after the other in order

Consecutive Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

'In music theory, a scale is "any consecutive series of notes that form a progression between one note and its octave", typically by order of pitch or fundamental frequency.'

Scale (music) - Wikipedia

[pamosmusic]

Oh lord.

I suppose I could go back through your 9,000 posts or whatever and make sure that you always tell people that they have to know their pitch sets, and never refer to scales for anything other than consecutive and complete series of notes inside an octave.

[ragman1]

'How To Stop Running Up And Down Scales And Start Creating Music'

[ragman1]

Oh lord

Ah, I see you've had an epiphany. At last. Bless you, my son.

Probably time for your tea and biscuits now.

[pamosmusic]

Ah, I see you've had an epiphany. At last. Bless you, my son.

Probably time for your tea and biscuits now.

I don’t know anyone who can be as wrong and as pedantic as you at the same time