Hexatonics - Triad Pairs To Go

[ragman1]

I know, it must be very frustrating.

Time to stop messing up HexatonicsApp's thread.

[pamosmusic]

Dear HexatonicsApp -

He thinks I don't know that the word scale can be used, and frequently is, to denote the scale from which a particular set of notes is taken.

So someone playing a nice diatonic line over, say, Dm7-G7-CM7 is said to be 'using the C major scale'.

Like saying brilliant players are monsters doesn't mean they've got horns and green hair... I think

Nah I just think you’re being super annoying and pedantic about the name of this dudes app when it makes perfect sense for what he’s trying to convey.

[ragman1]

I'm not alone. Zucker thought so immediately. So did I, as it happens, because I know something about hexatonic scales. Triads can be combined to make the notes of a hexatonic scale, although not in the right order.

But triads can also be garnered from a hexatonic scale depending on which note is added to the basic pentatonic. That's rather more complex.

And, of course, there are several different types of hexatonic scale. Like the blues scale, for example, or the whole-tone, they're hexatonic too.

[pamosmusic]

My dude just saying words about stuff.

[ragman1]

As it happens, I run up melodic minor scales quite frequently because they resolve neatly to the I usually. But no one cares because it sounds good. Running up major scales I tend to avoid, though. Down is better.

Mel min up, major down (but only relieved by a lydian note).

[pamosmusic]

As it happens, I run up melodic minor scales quite frequently because they resolve neatly to the I usually. But no one cares because it sounds good. Running up major scales I tend to avoid, though. Down is better.

Mel min up, major down (but only relieved by a lydian note).

What does this have to do with anything?

[GuyBoden]

Maybe, this is a good book to start the 'Hexatonics' journey:

[pamosmusic]

Maybe, this is a good book to start the 'Hexatonics' journey:

Someone needs to tell Jerry that "hexatonics" aren't real.

[HexatonicsApp]

Maybe, this is a good book to start the 'Hexatonics' journey:

This is THE book for me! David Valdez wrote an excellent blog article about it. He also references Gary Campbell's book, highly recommended as well. Here's the article:

https://davidvaldez.blogspot.com/200...exatonics.html

[mr. beaumont]

Cool idea, get an android version out there please.

[Christian Miller]

I don’t know anyone who can be as wrong and as pedantic as you at the same time

Have you been on the internet?

[sm80808]

I think this is pretty cool.

I would use it.

[HexatonicsApp]

I think this is pretty cool.

I would use it.

Thanks! Let me know if you do, I’m curious to hear your thoughts.

[Mick-7]

The chord variations in the app are intentionally organized around one or two specific scales for clarity. For example, I’ve used min7(b13) to represent Aeolian. However, I haven’t yet added triad pairs specifically for Phrygian min7—thanks for suggesting that!.

That was my point, m7b13 does not represent a single scale/mode, it occurs in other scales.

The goal of this app is simple: I’ve always wanted a tool that clearly lays out which triad pairs work over specific chords. It’s all about unlocking the full range of colors and extensions available in harmony. My hope is that this app will provide the same kind of insights and creative freedom to others that it’s given me.

As I said, if one knows a scale, one knows what chords it includes or is related to and how the scale tones or combinations of tones (e.g., arpeggios), apply to the chords. As a saxophone player, perhaps that is not as obvious to you so you find it enlightening but as a guitarist, I do not.

That statement sounds overly critical, doesn't it? If one is exploring the chord over chord approach to improvisation, I can see how your app could be useful.

[Christian Miller]

It's kind of the default tho

Notice how in this Kurt Rosenwinkel chart, Phrygian is specified in the chord symbols. Obv. the progression is not traditionally functional.

[pamosmusic]

As I said, if one knows a scale, one knows what chords it includes or is related to and how the scale tones or combinations of tones (e.g., arpeggios), apply to the chords. As a saxophone player, perhaps that is not as obvious to you so you find it enlightening but as a guitarist, I do not.

That statement sounds overly critical, doesn't it? If one is exploring the chord over chord approach to improvisation, I can see how your app could be useful.

Triad pairs are not really chord-over-chord though, I don't think ... more a modal way of getting around.

And honestly I think these are actually way more intuitive for horn players than for guitar players. It's possible that's part of the reason everyone on this forum of guitar players keeps chiming in with some version of "lol why tho."

Most of the friends I have who are super fluent with triad pairs are sax players, it seems to be something they get into fairly naturally (probably also because speed is less of a barrier, so that sheets of sound vibe you get from triad pairs is more within reach too). I know a couple trumpet players who have talked about it a bit too ... though range seems to get in the way of the cascading effect a little. Not sure.

On the other hand, something about the Shapes and Patterns way we get around makes scales and individual patterns easier to get under our fingers, but can make different permutations of those patterns or organizations of the notes therein feel like completely different entities. So being able to play a C major scale on guitar -- even very well and in tons of permutations -- is no indication that a guitarist will be able to easily play an F-G triad pair, and playing the F-G pair doesn't help much with being able to play the Dm-Em, etc etc.

[Mick-7]

Triad pairs are not really chord-over-chord though, I don't think ... more a modal way of getting around.

And honestly I think these are actually way more intuitive for horn players than for guitar players. It's possible that's part of the reason everyone on this forum of guitar players keeps chiming in with some version of "lol why tho."

Most of the friends I have who are super fluent with triad pairs are sax players, it seems to be something they get into fairly naturally (probably also because speed is less of a barrier, so that sheets of sound vibe you get from triad pairs is more within reach too). I know a couple trumpet players who have talked about it a bit too ... though range seems to get in the way of the cascading effect a little. Not sure.

On the other hand, something about the Shapes and Patterns way we get around makes scales and individual patterns easier to get under our fingers, but can make different permutations of those patterns or organizations of the notes therein feel like completely different entities. So being able to play a C major scale on guitar -- even very well and in tons of permutations -- is no indication that a guitarist will be able to easily play an F-G triad pair, and playing the F-G pair doesn't help much with being able to play the Dm-Em, etc etc.

This just sounds like an argument against superficial scale knowledge. To me, knowing the C Major scale, or any other scale, means knowing, and knowing how to play, all the triads and chords it contains - Dm, Em, etc.

I said earlier: "m7b13 does not represent a single scale/mode, it occurs in other scales." Obviously the more notes a chord contains, the fewer scales it will occur in, so in the case of a m7b13, the two common scale options are the phrygian and aeolian modes, but this is beyond the triad combo concept.

[pamosmusic]

This just sounds like an argument against superficial scale knowledge. To me, knowing the C Major scale, or any other scale, means knowing, and knowing how to play, all the triads and chords it contains - Dm, Em, etc.

It sounds like you’re talking about being able to play diatonic triads, but playing triad pairs is developing vocabulary from overlapping inversions of a single pair.

I guess this is a weird flex but I can play like … diatonic triads in first inversion with chromatic approach notes through a C melodic minor scale, or like … I don’t know enclosed diatonic sevenths and junk.

I know the scale super well … but playing an F/G triad pair and developing ideas with it is quite tricky. The fact of it’s existing inside of a C melodic minor scale is not something my broad knowledge of the scale prepared me to do without working on that pair specifically.

[dasein]

I've heard these called many different things. Triad pairs and hexatonics are pretty common. Charlie Banacos used to call them "double mambos" or "bi-tonal pendulums." I think triad pair is the clearest, but it doesn't matter that much. You think I'm going to tell Jerry Bergonzi that he's using the wrong name? Whatever you call it, the idea is the same: take 2 triads and use them as your melodic material over particular chords.

This has been a part of the modern jazz language for a long time now. McCoy Tyner's "Passion Dance" (both the head and his solo) is sort of the ultimate example. But it shows up everywhere. Bill Evans loved that "Dbmajor/Ebmajor" pair over a G7.

The reason you'd think of using pairs -- like the aforementioned Dbmaj/Ebmaj instead of just thinking G7altered/Ab melodic minor -- is because triads have their own sort of gravity. Thinking in triad pairs tend to give you different sounding lines than just thinking of scales. It's a very particular sound, one that everyone doesn't love. And it takes a lot of practice to make them sound musical instead of like you're just running predictable patterns.

I think this is a cool idea. One suggestion -- might be nice when you pick a triad pair to have the app auto-generate some exercises to get comfortable with them. The Gary Campbell book has some really nice examples. I understand this probably would be a lot more work, so you may want to wait for a v2.

[Mick-7]

It sounds like you’re talking about being able to play diatonic triads, but playing triad pairs is developing vocabulary from overlapping inversions of a single pair.

I guess this is a weird flex but I can play like … diatonic triads in first inversion with chromatic approach notes through a C melodic minor scale, or like … I don’t know enclosed diatonic sevenths and junk.

I know the scale super well … but playing an F/G triad pair and developing ideas with it is quite tricky. The fact of it’s existing inside of a C melodic minor scale is not something my broad knowledge of the scale prepared me to do without working on that pair specifically.

C Major or C melodic minor, but it just spells out a G11 chord (G-B-D-F-A-C). Maybe I'm just saying that needing an app for it (whatever "it" is) signals you have a knowledge deficit worth correcting.

[pamosmusic]

C Major or C melodic minor, but it just spells out a G11 chord (G-B-D-F-A-C). Maybe I'm just saying that needing an app for it (whatever "it" is) signals you have a knowledge deficit worth correcting.

Okay … one might even recommend using the app to correct that deficit?

[Mick-7]

Okay … one might even recommend using the app to correct that deficit?

Maybe, if you understood the underlying scale/harmonic theory - in which case you probably wouldn't need the app.

Then again, as we know, understanding the theory and being able to able to apply it in real time are two different things.

[pamosmusic]

Maybe, if you understood the underlying scale/harmonic theory - in which case you probably wouldn't need the app.

Then again, as we know, understanding the theory and being able to able to apply it in real time are two different things.

Sure man.

But for what it’s worth, there are sort of normal chord scale harmonies that are pretty easy to figure out, but I can imagine a world in which there are harmonies that might be tricky to navigate and things I haven’t thought of buried inside of this concept with which I have only cursory familiarity.

In short, I’m open to the possibility that this dude who is deep enough into this to have designed a whole app might have thought of things I haven’t.

[HexatonicsApp]

I've heard these called many different things. Triad pairs and hexatonics are pretty common. Charlie Banacos used to call them "double mambos" or "bi-tonal pendulums." I think triad pair is the clearest, but it doesn't matter that much. You think I'm going to tell Jerry Bergonzi that he's using the wrong name? Whatever you call it, the idea is the same: take 2 triads and use them as your melodic material over particular chords.

This has been a part of the modern jazz language for a long time now. McCoy Tyner's "Passion Dance" (both the head and his solo) is sort of the ultimate example. But it shows up everywhere. Bill Evans loved that "Dbmajor/Ebmajor" pair over a G7.

The reason you'd think of using pairs -- like the aforementioned Dbmaj/Ebmaj instead of just thinking G7altered/Ab melodic minor -- is because triads have their own sort of gravity. Thinking in triad pairs tend to give you different sounding lines than just thinking of scales. It's a very particular sound, one that everyone doesn't love. And it takes a lot of practice to make them sound musical instead of like you're just running predictable patterns.

I think this is a cool idea. One suggestion -- might be nice when you pick a triad pair to have the app auto-generate some exercises to get comfortable with them. The Gary Campbell book has some really nice examples. I understand this probably would be a lot more work, so you may want to wait for a v2.

Thanks for your feedback, much appreciated!

[HexatonicsApp]

Sure man.

But for what it’s worth, there are sort of normal chord scale harmonies that are pretty easy to figure out, but I can imagine a world in which there are harmonies that might be tricky to navigate and things I haven’t thought of buried inside of this concept with which I have only cursory familiarity.

In short, I’m open to the possibility that this dude who is deep enough into this to have designed a whole app might have thought of things I haven’t.

Peter, you are too kind! I'm definitely deep into hexatonics by now, much more so than when I started programming the app.