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Can you play alt against an unaltered dom7?
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12-13-2024 02:50 AM
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Yes, you can do whatever you want with the harmony as long as it sounds good. But more accurately you're always either just trying to create the effect that you intend or play something that works well with the band. You want to be able to play the form correctly, but once you have it down you can interpret it how you want.
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If your goal is to be able to play what you hear - play the lines that occur to you - than the question becomes: can you hear outside (altered) lines against the diatonic harmony? Or do you always tend to respond to diatonic chords by playing diatonic lines against them? (that's a natural tendency). If so, you'll need to retrain your ears to hear the nondiatonic lines.
Originally Posted by Bach5G
You could start by playing the so called blue notes like b3rds (#9ths), b5ths (#11ths), and b9ths. You may find that's as far out into the stratosphere as you'll want to go - out there in Thelonious Sphere Monk land.
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Of course. Originally Posted by Bach5G
Although altered dominants sound most conventional as a resolving chord. So if you have two bars of D7 say, try playing D13 for a bar and then go to D7alt.
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My answer is: you MUST play altered notes! Originally Posted by Bach5G
Ettore
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It’s what jazz is all about… Originally Posted by equenda
My answer is: you MUST play altered notes! Ettore
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Probably a stupid question from the cheap seats, but isnt alt over dominant pretty much the same as playing the tritone #11. At least in terms of pitches. And if so, i thought playing the b5 sub was standard fare
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That's an easy way to think of it, it would provide the altered tones I mentioned, e.g., Db7/Db6 over G7 gives you the b5th/#11th (Db), b9th (Ab) and b3rd/#9th (Bb). But if you can't hear it, it's liable to sound like a lame pattern. Then again, most people can hear the b3rd and b5th because they're common blue notes. Originally Posted by Average Joe
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key word...Experiment !..use some of the chord tones in the melodic minor scale as a spring board.. Originally Posted by Bach5G
against G7
Fmi7b5 b7 b9 3 b13
Db7 b5 b7 b9 3
try some pentatonic scales and arps ..try them in the circle of fifths/fourths..minor 3rds etc
and of course try some diminished scale stuff
record this stuff if you can to hear it..if you like some of it USE it in your daily playing and make it yours
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Oh crikey now you are asking. There’s going to be pages and pages of philosophy now. (Maybe) Originally Posted by Average Joe
The pitch sets are the same, if that’s what you mean.
FWIW I think the b5 sub is the older way to look at it.
Starting with the Db triad on G7 is a great way to get use to the sound. As are Abm and Eb triads.
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Altered dominant most often has a resolving quality but not altered dominants are the same. The 13b9 and 9b13 sounds are more colouristic and you also have the 7#11 of course, which isn’t a resolving quality to my ears - mostly (there’s always exceptions.)
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I'd add that playing alt against unaltered is going to sound different than playing alt over alt. In the former case you hear the tension more than in the latter. Originally Posted by Bach5G
Simple example. Gm7 C7 Fmaj7. If the comping instrument plays exactly that and you outline a Gb7 against the C7, it will sound cool. If the comper decides to play a Gb7 there, you're clever Gb7 line will turn into vanilla.
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... and if the comper plays G9 and you play a b9, good luck... Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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This is the sort of thing you think would be a problem and yet when working with good musicians it somehow isn’t. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Comping is often about playing in the gaps. Also good compers listen to what the soloist is doing. If the soloist is playing diminished scale stuff, you comp diminished scale stuff. And so on. This kind of ear is most often honed through a lot of active listening to and/or transcribing of records. Although often the best option is just to keep it simple and give the soloist space.
In fact clashes themselves are not the big deal they are made out to be sometimes. So long as players are leading their lines somewhere - which if you like is one of the big differences between competent and neophyte players - the ear makes sense of it.
You can hear enough examples on record. Cliff flagged up a good one the other day - last phrase of Bird’s solo on now’s the time.
So what is that b9 doing? Well in a functional tune it’s mostly likely going to resolve via implied or direct voice leading to the half step down. So the ear hears it as a sort of chromatic neighbour.
However in the real world for many people at jazz workshops I understand you’ll be playing with musicians who themselves are just getting it together. Plus beginning pianists at workshops always seem to learn these 3-9 seventh chord against bass voicings - I think it’s a Mark Levine thing? That’s five notes….
In this case it’s easy to see why the chord scale approach is so popular - given players may not know how to resolve phrases in forward motion and there’s a strong likelihood of several chord players trying to comp at the same time, it lessens the likelyhood of complete mud if everyone in the workshop is playing Lydian Dominant on that D7 chord, because all the musicians are basically expressing a sort of communal chord voicing.
But that’s not how real jazz works, even the post modal stuff.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 12-14-2024 at 06:47 AM.
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