Presentation is more important than improvisation? - Hal Galper

[AllanAllen]

I totally agree, but if I had to bat for the other side.... it's all very well to view this whole improv debate from the standpoint of the listener, as in, what do they care how the lines are constructed (or not?).

But let's face it, many of us here are not playing in front of audiences as much as we are playing for ourselves, and like the way that all Art is its own reward, there is something to be said for the way that improv is more satisfying for us as players the less contrived it is. I don't know about you guys, but when I was into learning entire solos well enough to play along with recordings, it never really felt satisfying. I would be thinking to myself "now, imagine if I was actually improvising this, how cool would that feel!"

So don't feel sorry for the Tristano-ites, they're probably not making much money (who is?), nor getting the respect they probably deserve, but I bet they're having a blast every time they pick up their instrument (I mean, even more than the rest of us). At least I hope they are.

I wouldn't be doing any of this if I wasn't out playing gigs. Watching TV is much easier.

[joe2758]

oh good another post discounting amateurs who don't gig

[AllanAllen]

oh good another post discounting amateurs who don't gig

That's not my intention. I do this because I like the gigs, but you can do this for whatever reason you like and that's fine. I also feel like gigs are the best way to push yourself and develop, which is why I advocate them, and honestly, watch my videos, it's not like I'm real good and bragging. This is attainable, I'm trying to inspire, not put anyone down.

[Christian Miller]

As I understand it Tristano was pretty purist about gigs too.

If you don’t have gigs you can do what you like.

Tbh I’ve not had much on lately myself so I’ve gone down into some strange rabbit holes. It’s freeing.

I do find it much harder atm to get motivated about learning standards and so on if I’m not going to be playing pickup jazz gigs. (When I have gigs I then feel resentful about not working on my Special Interests lol.) I understand some do that for fun. I mean I do sometimes if I REALLY like the tune, but mostly it’s because a tune got called by someone on a gig and I felt like a hack fraud for not knowing it. Although that’s the initial (negative) impulse I usually really get into the tune when I’ve started studying it.

If I had any sense I’d be doing all the stuff I should be doing, of course, and getting my face out there and so on to pick up more work, but in practice I do not have any sense and also I am frankly knackered (and broke) atm. Going out in the evenings is very hard. It’s almost a year since I saw any live music. Again if I make the effort it’s always great. I know other people in my position who do make the effort, so there’s no excuse honestly.

I’ll do it if I’m booked obviously, because I have to.

All that said, jazz for me is social music and needs other people. I do realise that means one has to leave the house and trust me when I say that I relate, but there it is. I say this aware of my own failings in this area.

(Tbf I used to be hungry to play every night when I was younger, one way or another. Life changes)

I say this not because I’m moaning but because I hope it shows I’m not being smug. Hopefully.

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[pamosmusic]

That's not my intention. I do this because I like the gigs, but you can do this for whatever reason you like and that's fine. I also feel like gigs are the best way to push yourself and develop, which is why I advocate them, and honestly, watch my videos, it's not like I'm real good and bragging. This is attainable, I'm trying to inspire, not put anyone down.

Also not to be weird, but I doubt you’re being totally honest there. You’d probably be playing guitar and nerding out for an hour a night even if there was no gig coming up.

Theres this story about Wayne Gretzky that I think about a lot. It’s apocryphal but I have some students getting ready for college auditions and I think about this a bit. Anyway.

Gretzky goes to some hockey camp and gives a clinic and after the clinic, he’s walking away from the rink with his trainer and the dad of the most talented kid at the camp runs up to him.

Dad: sorry Mr Gretzky, I just wanted your advice. My son is so talented and he wants to play in college and I think he could really make something of himself, but he has trouble staying motivated. What can I do to make sure he’s working year round the way he needs to to reach that level.

Gretzky gives him some practical and inspiring answer and the dad thanks him and leaves. Gretzky and his trainer walk away and Gretzky starts shaking his head.

Trainer: what?
Gretzky: the kid won’t make it.
Trainer: what do you mean? Why?
Gretzky: when I was a kid, my parents had to drag my ass off the ice.

Anyway. I think about this a lot with some talented high schoolers I teach. I’ve never seen a college audition or a gig or whatever motivate someone who wasn’t already motivated. Maybe it can help them sharpen certain things or point them in a particular direction but if you want to play, you’re playing. Even if you’re a lawyer and it’s for thirty minutes while you drink your coffee in the dark.

[Bobby Timmons]

AA likes to push his gigging as legitimacy.

[pamosmusic]

As I understand it Tristano was pretty purist about gigs too.

If you don’t have gigs you can do what you like.

Tbh I’ve not had much on lately myself so I’ve gone down into some strange rabbit holes. It’s freeing.

I do find it much harder atm to get motivated about learning standards and so on if I’m not going to be playing pickup jazz gigs. (When I have gigs I then feel resentful about not working on my Special Interests lol.) I understand some do that for fun. I mean I do sometimes if I REALLY like the tune, but mostly it’s because a tune got called by someone on a gig and I felt like a hack fraud for not knowing it. Although that’s the initial (negative) impulse I usually really get into the tune when I’ve started studying it.

If I had any sense I’d be doing all the stuff I should be doing, of course, and getting my face out there and so on to pick up more work, but in practice I do not have any sense and also I am frankly knackered (and broke) atm. Going out in the evenings is very hard. It’s almost a year since I saw any live music. Again if I make the effort it’s always great. I know other people in my position who do make the effort, so there’s no excuse honestly.

I’ll do it if I’m booked obviously, because I have to.

All that said, jazz for me is social music and needs other people. I do realise that means one has to leave the house and trust me when I say that I relate, but there it is. I say this aware of my own failings in this area.

(Tbf I used to be hungry to play every night when I was younger, one way or another. Life changes)

I say this not because I’m moaning but because I hope it shows I’m not being smug. Hopefully.

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Me too.

Moved here two years ago and have a kid etc etc etc .... so I had to get the teaching going first. Now I kind of prefer it that way. I used to gig quite a bit more, but now it's maybe three or four times a month, one or two of those is usually a solo gig. Though I've always had a day job. Mostly kind of cool music related ones, but I've never relied on gigging for my rent. Hats off to folks who do. There is no way on god's green earth I could do it.

On the other hand, I find I like teaching, almost no matter who it is (yes I have come across the occasional exception). I have some super fun jazz students, a few classical students who are super into it, a couple great rock/blues sort of students, and still a handful of beginners. Oddly enough, I do not feel the same about gigs. If I have a gig that I'm not super looking forward to, there's almost no middle ground. If I'm not excited for it, I tend to dread it. Which is a bit odd.

[pamosmusic]

AA likes to push his gigging as legitimacy.

What do you like pushing as legitimacy?

[RLetson]

Christian, it sounds like you're in the middle of what my mother used to call "the blahs," which I take to be a mild form of (usually temporary) depression--I always think of Hamlet saying, "I have of late, but
wherefore I know not, lost all my mirth, forgone all custom of exercises. . . ." I'm experiencing a focused bit of it right now about my book reviewing--an exercise I've been at for 46 years, 34 at the same magazine. I've been dragging myself to reading the current review candidate, never a good sign. But I know that it will lift when a title comes along that grabs me.

I'm pretty sure that what I'm feeling is not a general case of the blahs--I still look forward to playing out two or three times a week (for no money and sometimes no listeners beyond us chickens and the restaurant staff), as I have been doing for not quite 30 years now. And you're right about jazz as social activity--in fact, I'd expand that to include all music. Which does not mean that there isn't considerable satisfaction to be found sitting on the sofa at home and annoying the cats. (And, on a good day, hearing my wife say, "That's nice.")

And another poetic touchstone floats into the Magic 8-Ball window, Robert Frost's "Two Tramps in Mud-Time," particularly this:

I had no right to play
With what was another man's work for gain.
My right might be love but theirs was need.
And where the two exist in twain
Theirs was the better right--agreed.

But yield who will to their separation,
My object in living is to unite
My avocation and my vocation
As my two eyes make one in sight.
Only where love and need are one,
And the work is play for mortal stakes,
Is the deed ever really done
For Heaven and the future's sakes.

[Bobby Timmons]

what do you like pushing as legitimacy?

Bh

[pamosmusic]

This also feels somewhat weird to say, but gigging is pretty good too.

As far as measures of legitimacy go, being paid by someone to do the thing you do and having the hustle to keep the relationship going and keep your schedule active is a pretty good one.

Pretty sure Allan's gigging more than I am right now.

[Christian Miller]

Me too.

Moved here two years ago and have a kid etc etc etc .... so I had to get the teaching going first. Now I kind of prefer it that way. I used to gig quite a bit more, but now it's maybe three or four times a month, one or two of those is usually a solo gig.

I find I like teaching, almost no matter who it is (yes I have come across the occasional exception). Oddly enough, I do not feel the same about gigs. If I have a gig that I'm not super looking forward to, there's almost no middle ground. If I'm not excited for it, I tend to dread it. Which is a bit odd.

I mean part of it is that gigs are actually quite disruptive. What keeps me on the straight and narrow with kids and work is a pretty strict routine. Gigs throw that all out of kilter, and you have to do all the admin stuff especially if you are organising the thing. Even getting out of the house with the right equipment and wearing the right outfit requires mental work. Travelling to the thing on time requires planning and stress, unlike regular teaching gigs where you know the lay of the land.

So the idea of doing more than two of those in a given week is actually quite hard to picture.

I tend to only say yes to things that I know are not going to make me stressed and unhappy, and I’m pleased to say most things I’m booked for I really look forward to. I mean, I love playing them (otw)! But as the saying goes we aren’t paid for the playing….

I think it’s quite normal. Part of the jazz musician life cycle.


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[joe2758]

Bh

[Bobby Timmons]

[pamosmusic]

Bh

Good luck and god speed

[Bobby Timmons]

[princeplanet]

Yeah, I know this whole Jazz thing came about because of gigs, social music as Miles would say, and back in the day the cats were were gigging more than they were "practicing". But it's almost 2025, and most Jazz players are practicing more than they are playing live these days, as is the case with most on this forum. I think that's fine, even more than fine. TBH, I have more regard for my painter friends that paint because they have to, not because they need to exhibit.

I used to gig for years, but I realised I get more satisfaction just playing, with others, with records, backing tracks or just solo. Mostly with no-one listening. As Lou Reed would say, "It's better than Monopoly"...

[Christian Miller]

This also feels somewhat weird to say, but gigging is pretty good too.

As far as measures of legitimacy go, being paid by someone to do the thing you do and having the hustle to keep the relationship going and keep your schedule active is a pretty good one.

Pretty sure Allan's gigging more than I am right now.

Me too probably haha.

I mean if people feel that playing solos - however well - with a backing track gives them license to call themselves a jazz guitarist I don’t think the onus is on others to respect that. Sorry. I just don’t. It may be stepping stones towards being a jazz guitarist.

This should be held in the context that I have trouble calling myself a jazz guitarist some days. I say I play guitar and that most of my gigs are jazz. I think my professional skill set is congruent with jazz, I mean not everyone is happy playing a set of standards or whatever, but I often come of gigs feeling like an imposter which I think is not unusual.

I think it’s best understood as something you get recognised for by the community. It maybe that you study jazz and end up having something else to offer music. Nile Rodgers is a great example. But there’s a million ways that can happen at different levels.

Over time I tend to care less about these sorts of labels. Which is healthy I think! We don’t have to define ourselves in these ways.

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[joe2758]

I'm not into being anything, I just think it's snotty to say it has the same value as watching tv

[Christian Miller]

I'm not into being anything, I just think it's snotty to say it has the same value as watching tv

Allen said that it seemed that way to him.

I mean telly is rubbish. I rather play my tele, but that’s me.


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[joe2758]

k sorry all

[Christian Miller]

AA likes to push his gigging as legitimacy.

There’s worse measures, tbf. Being able to type essays on JGO for example haha.


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[AllanAllen]

AA likes to push his gigging as legitimacy.

I've been hired by exactly zero people as a jazz sideman. So my gigs are literally my gigs, with my band. So there is also that. Sending a lot of emails doesn't make me a legitimate jazz musician, but the gigs I get are helping me develop into one.

Pretty sure Allan's gigging more than I am right now.

[joe2758]

I think Bobby just meant you happen to bring it up often

[pamosmusic]

I've been hired by exactly zero people as a jazz sideman. So my gigs are literally my gigs, with my band. So there is also that. Sending a lot of emails doesn't make me a legitimate jazz musician, but the gigs I get are helping me develop into one.

Correction Allen is gigging the exact same amount as me right now.