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For sure - dude was super-human. There's Bird and there's everyone else. Imagine being around back then and having heard only what had been done up until he came on the scene, and then wham - he completely blew people's minds. "Licks" never sounded so good - before or since. I'm no authority on Bird, but he was a bit more than just licks - he developed some motives, but not to the extent that you hear more modern player nowadays. Motivic development isn't just jazz-centric - it was done in classical music at the composition level.
Originally Posted by princeplanet
Definitely. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Do you dig Jim Hall at all? He's all about motivic development. I think that's where the more modern players got it, also probably from horn players... Originally Posted by princeplanet
That's cool. I know for me, when I came to jazz, I probably had some sort of pre-bop stuff down (chord tones, enclosures with some passing tones etc. ), got a little bop and kind went for more modern vocabulary at that point. What always seems to happen like a cycle with me is, I suddenly decide that I don't have enough be-bop, so I go back and get some more down. So I kind of leap-frog my way through it all... Originally Posted by princeplanet
We can't all be Sonny Rollins, but with a ton of work we might get to be like Sonny Stitt, and for some of us, that'll do!
But for me, I try to develop motives, especially with the melody, it seems to make the improv more personal to the tune, and it's really saying something. It's hard work to do in the moment, but it's a way to get deep into the tune. It's another level IMO.
Hope this makes sense....
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08-16-2012 01:31 AM
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Totally makes sense to me. But I always try to put this kinda "debate" into perspective by perceiving it from the listener's point of view, and to them, most won't care whether they're hearing licks or not, whatever floats their boat the most is what counts. Let's face it, if your vocab is made up of the cream of the great cats' bags, then people will dig, no? Sure, depends on the handling.... but if you're trying to make up your own "vocab" on the fly, unless your the very best (Hall, Bickert HR, Wes etc) it's hard to impress the non musician listener with your musical adventures. Now here is where I can hear the interjection- "screw the listener, I play for ME!" Well now, that's a whole 'nother story, and one I have the ultimate respect for. Provided that one doesn't expect the untrained listener to appreciate the difference between, say, what Jim Raney does vs what Clint Strong does. Originally Posted by Spirit59
For sure - dude was super-human. There's Bird and there's everyone else. Imagine being around back then and having heard only what had been done up until he came on the scene, and then wham - he completely blew people's minds. "Licks" never sounded so good - before or since. I'm no authority on Bird, but he was a bit more than just licks - he developed some motives, but not to the extent that you hear more modern player nowadays. Motivic development isn't just jazz-centric - it was done in classical music at the composition level.
Definitely.
Do you dig Jim Hall at all? He's all about motivic development. I think that's where the more modern players got it, also probably from horn players...
That's cool. I know for me, when I came to jazz, I probably had some sort of pre-bop stuff down (chord tones, enclosures with some passing tones etc. ), got a little bop and kind went for more modern vocabulary at that point. What always seems to happen like a cycle with me is, I suddenly decide that I don't have enough be-bop, so I go back and get some more down. So I kind of leap-frog my way through it all...
But for me, I try to develop motives, especially with the melody, it seems to make the improv more personal to the tune, and it's really saying something. It's hard work to do in the moment, but it's a way to get deep into the tune. It's another level IMO.
Hope this makes sense....
So yeah, who's it for, the listener or the player? Both?
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I can't think of that kind of stuff - if I start trying to second guess what everybody is going to be "impressed" by, my playing will quickly turn to $hit. I just try to do what I do - worrying about what so-and-so thinks will ruin my playing in a heartbeat. Originally Posted by princeplanet
If you think that the only musicians that can pull of motivic development are top-name, signed to major label jazz artists, then I don't know what to tell ya.
I'm just not really about pulling rabbits out of hats and playing Cherokee at 340 bpm....
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Not that there's anything wrong with that, right? Some would argue that it is no less artful.... Me personally, I wanna have a foot in both camps, one day.... Originally Posted by Spirit59
I'm just not really about pulling rabbits out of hats and playing Cherokee at 340 bpm....
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"Artful" is a very loaded word.... Originally Posted by princeplanet
Not that there's anything wrong with that, right? Some would argue that it is no less artful.... Me personally, I wanna have a foot in both camps, one day....
Me? I like to get it to where it's like I'm speaking in tongues, only without the religious component...
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Sure like Coltrane, but it's ok if that's not yer cuppa tea. My wife likes the Cannonball solos better than the Coltrane ones on the albums she listens to that feature both. Although not quite at the "speaking in tongues" level he reached soon after those years, he was about eschewing licks, while Cannon was whipping them out like Parker on steroids. I get where she's coming from, I used to complain that listening to Coltrane was like listening to someone practice sequences, but he moved on to that next level where very few have reached, and he blows my mind- sometimes... Originally Posted by Spirit59
"Artful" is a very loaded word....
Me? I like to get it to where it's like I'm speaking in tongues, only without the religious component...
A high art indeed, but then, listen to Cannonball weave those impossibly slippery lines with more authority than just about anyone, and it's unquestionably a high art as well. You don't compare Hemingway to Amis, or Dali to Rembrandt, you either prefer one, both, or neither. But I dig that the Raney clip was put up against the Clint one, I felt kinda challenged by it to choose a preference and I'm a little surprised that I actually like both about equally, for entirely different reasons. Damn it, I wanna play like both those mothers!
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I'm assuming you're referring to late period Coltrane. I wouldn't characterize my playing as being anything like that. As an aside, I'd say my favorite Coltrane stuff is right after Giant Steps, on the album called "Coltrane's Sound", where he's still messing with the Coltrane changes and getting a bit more free. "A Love Supreme" is much more free, and I dig it, but after that, when he went into outer space completely, a lot of that I'm not that into. It was a place he had to go, but when it gets to to much screekin' an' scronkin', I can't hang.
It's really personal and for me, music is magic and connects me to something.
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I know this is an ancient thread (forgive me) , but I'm going to ask: anyone still have a copy of the accompanying booklet to Clint Strong's "Mastering Jazz Licks"?
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I thought when I saw this thread pop up in the New Posts listings, "Hhmm, that sounds familiar." Originally Posted by freespirit747
Someone recently posted a clip of Clint playing, perhaps with Rory Hoffman. Both are great players. I've never seen the video / DVD "Mastering Jazz Licks." I'm sure it contains a lot I could use.
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It's 2022 and still searching for Clint strong booklet / DVD
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Hello,
Not hard to find a free copy of the booklet on the Internet. I won't attach it here for legal reasons, even if out of print.
Send me a in MP if really dying to get a copy (30 pages or so).
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here’s half of your request.
https://youtu.be/tFU_9GFoi6o
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Clint's one helluva player, alright.
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You should be able to get a copy here, but they do ask if you can donate something to them. Originally Posted by freespirit747
Clint Strong-Mastering Jazz licks - Free Download PDF
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