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For what it’s worth, I think exercises like that are much better than just running the scale up and down and they’ll get you to know the scale better *in the way you already describe knowing it.* Which is to say that it doesn’t give the context and application part of it. The fundamental question was regarding how to be able to command those things over changes, and this doesn’t really do that.
Maybe I’m being a little too bold and off the beaten path here … but I think the best way to get better at applying arpeggios over changes is to .. apply arpeggios over changes.
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07-27-2024 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
wolflen, that part was fairly clear, it's the second part of your regimen (below) that requires explanation. This is the point at which you start to regret you suggested this.
yeppers ..regret is double downed ..
the Db scale should be using Db major as the main chord so
Db major minor dim aug dom
same for B major...
I was not clear ..use the Eb/D# note in every scale it appears ..say E major..so E major minor dim aug dom and so on
hope this is clear...
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Yes, but the hard part is not transitioning from scale to scale but finding the chord arpeggios in each scale. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Because he suggested starting on non-chord tones to play arpeggios:
Originally Posted by wolflen
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I also didn't understand the part where the Eb becomes the second note in the Db scale. How are you doing all the different triads then? Originally Posted by Mick-7
wolflen, that part was fairly clear, it's the second part of your regimen (below) that requires explanation. This is the point at which you start to regret you suggested this.
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[QUOTE=Peng1026;1350795]Hi folks, I would like to hear your thoughts about the topic fretboard.?[/QUOTE
I thought about this again.
You know the fretboard and you have musical ideas. Seems like that should be enough.
Are the musical ideas purely imagined sound, or are you referring to more mathematical concepts (for want of a better descriptor) like "use X arp over Y chord in Z harmonic context"?
If you can already scat sing a decent solo, one approach would be to forget all the theory and just work on being able to play what you're thinking in real time. You can work on that in front of the TV. Just play every melody you hear in the background music or the commercials. If you need more ideas to scat, that's just listening and maybe copying what you hear.
If you don't want to play what you might scat sing and, instead, prefer the X-against-Y approach, I think you may have to work on hearing those lines.
Or, perhaps it's just finding the entry points fast enough -- which I think you can work on by slowing down a simple tune to the point where you can do it. Then, try it in 12 keys and/or a little faster. IRealPro is a great tool for that.
One last point. My approach, which I'm recommending considering but not necessarily adopting, is to know the notes in the chords, scales and arps that you use, by name. Extensions too. So, for example, if there's a G7 and you think the #5 might be a good sound for it (a very distinctive sound), you would know, instantly, that the #5 is an Eb. At the same time, you know that the other notes in G7 are G B and F. How hard is it to know the notes in a G7 and realize that you're raising the 5th? Would you benefit from practicing augmented arps to do that, assuming you know where all the notes are?
And, if you did see benefit to it, I would suggest picking one of those arps and applying it every way you can think of -- before going to the next arp. Better to have one you can use than any number you can't use.
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Originally Posted by wolflen
If you only play triads, you'll have to do it in groups of 4 keys.... Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Eb/D# will be a primary chord tone in 1/3rd of the keys/scales: Eb (root)/B (3rd)/Ab (Eb).
D = D/ Bb/ G
Db/C# = Db (C#)/A /Gb(F#)
C = C /Ab /F
These scales are a half step apart so not hard to connect.... but when you add 7th chords it gets more complicated.
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It’s surprising how well this works. Even rudimentary use like straight up G G G-7 C7 over the first 4 bars of How High The Moon. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Like I said earlier, just do it easy style first worry about substituting later when you get comfortable with painting by numbers.
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On the first point … it says something about the way this information is presented to us that this is “surprising.” It’s like ……. The first thing we should think of? Alas. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Also yeah for sure on the very basic changes. For what it’s worth my head is very full of complicated harmony, but I’ve gotten into the habit of mostly working on the basic changes (with some m3s for dominants) and playing 7ths chords off the root or third. And that really kind of covers it
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[QUOTE=rpjazzguitar;1351085]
"Are the musical ideas purely imagined sound, or are you referring to more mathematical concepts (for want of a better descriptor) like "use X arp over Y chord in Z harmonic context"?" Originally Posted by Peng1026
I have both, or saying my brain is able to do only one of the 2 ways in different situations. If I try to play melodic lines, I could imagine the melodic lines in my mind, they are mostly diatonic lines ,without not much chromatic stuffs. I have a strong "relative solfege" sense, the notes "Bb D F E D" played in a row would sound "do mi sol fa mi" for me, so do "Eb G Bb Ab G".
But if I play in a non-diatonic context (or the key centers change to fastly), I would try to apply the pure theories "use X arp over Y chord in Z harmonic context", but in this situation I don't always have the concrete lines in mind ahead, therefore they may sound very random.
"My approach, which I'm recommending considering but not necessarily adopting, is to know the notes in the chords, scales and arps that you use, by name. Extensions too. "
I know the notes. I could tell any note in any chord, any degree in any scale (if I know the scale), but it takes 1-2 seconds for each note. And when I try to find the note in the fretboard, it take another 0.5-1 second. And I know that's exactly the problem: It's not quick enough.
I even saw someone pickup a note and say, it's the Xth level from the scale A and Yth level from the Scale B etc.
That's the reason I wrote the title of this post as "Fretboard mastery"....
Maybe could someone show his methods with that he trained himself to internalize the complex "navigation system"?
Thanks!
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Good advice here …
Just to add, I learned a lot from just going 1-7 or 1-7-1 up and down the scale on every chord. Surprisingly difficult at first especially at speed.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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[QUOTE=Peng1026;1351174]
I did it with a lot of reading and playing songs in every key when practicing improv. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Learning how to sight read music will correct this deficiency. Originally Posted by Peng1026
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I did that too, but not thoroughly enough i guess... That's my problem, I practice jazz guitar in the spare time after the full time work as an architect, sometimes it's really hard to keep on struggling for a long term... But I know I shouldn't complain about it because Wes practiced also after work... Originally Posted by Mick-7
So I am at this stage: I can play single and not to complicated lines by sight, in the common jazz keys (C F G Bb, maybe Eb). But I can't play chords by sight, and can't do lines with to many accidents.
How did you do it? Did you pick up a classic guitar book, or you concentrated just on single jazz lines , using omni books? Could you please suggest one or two books? Thanks!
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I listen to some Jazz tunes and then copy the phrases I like. (I find that the simple phrases are best.
)
If you can, find the intervals used in the phrase over the chord.
Here is a simple phrase from today's listening.
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Playing scales over the changes like Christian mentioned above is a good thing to add to practicing tunes. It's also very useful to see use your chord shapes as references for scalar material everywhere on the fretboard.
A lot of emphasis is given in teaching materials to connecting chords in cycle progressions (7 goes to 3, 3 goes to 1 etc). But you do have to have something to say within the harmony as well, not just connect them. Jazz players typically have their implicit "noodling language" in the jazz style (mostly in 8th notes and triplets) for each chord type depending on how they organize the harmony. A lot of work is about how to develop this language and have expressive control over it (both melodically and with respect to form). Arpeggios is just one of the elements of this language.
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Do you play with other people? Don’t try and master everything before you even start. Originally Posted by Peng1026
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The book I found most helpful was Rhythms Complete by Colin and Bower. It's old fashioned swing, but the lines sound good and they are graded in difficulty. By the end you're doing some serious syncopation in a bunch of keys. Play everything as written and up an octave. Originally Posted by Peng1026
A lot of people recommend the Leavitt books from Berklee. I never used them, so I can't personally recommend them.
After Colin/Bower, I don't know what to recommend. I played out of some clarinet books. Back then, 60's, there wasn't so much written for guitar. Clarinet has about the same range. Later, I used a book by Lenny Niehus. Rhythmic Articulation by Pasquale Bona. I'm not recommending any of these, although I used them.
More recently, Melodic Shapes For the Modern Improviser by Lin and Murzyn. 12 keys, so that's a good thing.
Reading anything out of a fakebook.
If you can do all that, you'll know the fingerboard without having to think.
At that point, I started playing in horn bands where the guitar was sometimes treated like another horn and I had to read what they were reading. That was humbling at times, but you find a way to get better.
You might have to consider dropping this silly architecture thing if it's getting in the way.
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I'm not a great sight reader, just good enough to get by, and I'm mostly self taught so I can't suggest specific resources, except Howard Roberts book on sight reading, which I think I shared here in the forum (if it's out of print), but it can be found online for free. However, if you'll just think of the names of all the notes you play when you're practicing, that should be good enough. Besides, improving your sight reading will not help you become a better improvisor, if that is your goal. Being able to hear the notes you intend to play is far more important than being able to to name them. There have been really great players who could barely read music, if at all. Originally Posted by Peng1026
As AllanAllen said, you can't be great at everything, you need to focus on what you want to learn. And has been suggested a few times, whatever you learn needs to be actually applied by playing it over some sort of backing track or better yet, making your own, i.e., recording your comping and playing over it. That way you can work on both your improvising and comping skills. Playing with other people as AA suggested is another good option.
Are you saying you don't think it's a good idea to try to turn the tiny home into a high-rise apartment? Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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(note I’m a lousy reader)
so not about reading , just playing
what I’ve found the most time value
activity in getting comfortable with the fretboard,
is getting the CAGED shapes so down
so well that they end up
linking together and covering the whole fretboard
then the chord shapes come from that
and the lines come from that too
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I agree, using any system to learn the major scale in 12 keys across the fretboard is essential. If you can’t do that, that’s a good spot to start. Originally Posted by pingu
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Here are some things I give all my students with all their scales. Even with pentatonics, they usually trip people up. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
1. All keys (duh).
2. All positions (duh).
3. Starting and ending on every note. This one almost invariably trips people up. So instead of starting on the low note of the scale (say on the A in that G shape, fifth position C major scale fingering), you try starting on B in the same position, playing to the top, playing back to the bottom, then back to B. Then do the same with C in the same position, then D, and E, and F, etc.
Its useful for several reasons but almost always trips people up.
4. Fragments. Play in small fragments, so maybe a fifth, and repeat each a few times. Like C D E F G F E D C, repeat a few times, D E F G A G F E D, etc. The fragments can be any length, but 5 is nice rhythmically.
5. Sequences — 123 234 345 etc. Three and four note ones are both good.
6. Intervals. Thirds and sixths for a while before anything else.
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5 up 3rds down is easy on the ear. Can’t remember who recommended that here, but I’ve been using that as a warmup. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
C D E F G E C
D E F G A F D
and so on.
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You meant D#? Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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' Originally Posted by pauln
I meant b13.
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Thanks for the suggestions of the books! Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
By the way, I've been considered dropping this silly architecture thing for the past 15 years, struggled a lot, but still have to live on it, long story here.... My only hope is that I could retire earlier, I mean in 23 years instead of 28...
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