The Jazz Slur Rule?

[Christian Miller]

No need 'to be clear', rest assured I do not think it's a set-in-stone rule, but rather a general tendency.

Yeah, just be clear about what I'm saying, because if I don't say that, someone will say that I said that the upbeats in bebop are always accented.

Ok. I can only imagine what it must be like to teach someone who isn't familiar with the style they're learning.

None of us grew up with Charlie Parker. I am TBF quite bad at music, but FWIW it did take me a long time to hear the specifics of the music. And I hear a lot more in it than I did when I was starting off, It is unfamiliar. My 'mother tongue' was rock music.

I don't think what you're saying is contradictory to what I've been saying. But in reply no. 87 you said that you're not sure you'd agree with what I had said which was that there is choice and freedom for students of jazz in how they articulate.

Probably what you should have said is that you don't disagree with what I'd said, but only if the student is at a particular level. Because it's incontrovertible that at some stage someone is going to have to make decisions about if they want to be a legato monster, or whether they're more of a gypsy picker etc. This is my point which I keep on apparently having to make.

Not sure - I feel technique is technique and phrasing is phrasing. Getting away from the mechanics of the instrument can help this stuff come into focus.

[joe2758]

The reason I like rules of thumb such as it's idiomatic to slur into downbeats is because I learn all these long phrases from horn players...finding a good fingering is hard enough without trying to match where they slur. But, with generalities I'm able to place them where they make the line easier to play AND sound idiomatic. Because of the general ratio of where they work technically and sound good vs not, it keep things pretty balanced for me.

sometimes a slur is part of the line and mandatory pretty much

[mr. beaumont]

For reference.

[Christian Miller]

My point only was that there is flexibility and that technical execution - which is a big part of a player's sound and the nature of their vocabulary - becomes at some point the responsibility of the student. These are the choices of the student, eventually.

Maybe we are saying the same thing then.

I can only respond to specifics. If someone comes into a lesson and hasn't got the basics together, I will teach them a technique. It's not the only one out there, but it will do the job (hopefully). If someone has a developed technique and needs musical advice, I'll try and give that.

Christian just sort of picked holes in what I said and went off on some lecture he seemed to think I needed to hear.

OK I was pushing back on what you'd said a bit, perhaps unnecessarily - but I don't think it's a worthless post. I think the link between Jimmy Raney and Allan is quite interesting, and shows how indebted fusion is to its bebop influences even when it isn't obvious. That lineage is relevant to the thread, I think?

You know, I should transcribe that Raney solo, might be a good video 'legato phrasing in jazz.'

[joe2758]

Main thing that was interesting about his slurs (otherwise what I expected, and great), were those whole step slides. hmm...

[joe2758]

would you transcribe it? it actually might be one of the most helpful ever knowing the exact fingers...that pretty amazing actually

[Christian Miller]

would you transcribe it? it actually might be one of the most helpful ever knowing the exact fingers...that pretty amazing actually

No I'll do the one I posted, not the one Jeff did. But the fingerings on the video would probably help give me an idea of how he did things.

You could do the other one!

[joe2758]

No I'll do the one I posted, not the one Jeff did. But the fingerings on the video would probably help give me an idea of how he did things.

You could do the other one!

I don't usually as a rule due to the time commitment, but this one shouldn't actually be bad! I won't be writing anything though haha F that. I wonder what youtube does to the pitch at half speed

[mr. beaumont]

I don't think I could transcribe the vid I posted, with the background noise and that hot, ringing ride cymbal...

I thought it was just interesting what you could literally SEE happening.

[Christian Miller]

I don't usually as a rule due to the time commitment

One strategy I find useful is setting a timer and just doing 10 minutes. Whatever I have accomplished at the end - one note, one phrase, a few bars - is fine. But, usually be the time the timer has gone off I'm keen to do more.

FWIW I also don't always finish off whole solos.

Of course, you are more likely to put the time into a solo you chose yourself, but I found by making it less some all-absorbing epic task, I got into doing maybe 20 minutes of it a day. That's enough to get me through whole solos, eventually.

[joe2758]

Thanks for addressing that. Anyone can do 10 mins a day, for sure. I only practice a few hours a week and even I can do that. No excuse.

But what I haven't heard explained, and I think I have asked before, is why is it a key aspect vs the person (me) who find thousands of transcribed licks and partial solos that I love, learn them, and play with the record (sometimes), ingrain them, apply to tunes, use in different contexts, analyze etc...

everything we are supposed to do besides the actual figuring it out by ear? Is it anything beyond ear training, which is obviously good, but is that the essential point of it? maybe "learning to listen carefully"

[pamosmusic]

Thanks for addressing that. Anyone can do 10 mins a day, for sure. I only practice a few hours a week and even I can do that. No excuse.

But what I haven't heard explained, and I think I have asked before, is why is it a key aspect vs the person (me) who find thousands of transcribed licks and partial solos that I love, learn them, and play with the record (sometimes), ingrain them, apply to tunes, use in different contexts, analyze etc...

everything we are supposed to do besides the actual figuring it out by ear? Is it anything beyond ear training, which is obviously good, but is that the essential point of it? maybe "learning to listen carefully"

Yeah I also think you’d be surprised by how much your listening is enriched by kind of “knowing what that thing is”

It depends on your goal for sure. If your goal is to have some licks, then however you get them all good. If your goal is to have really good jazz articulation, then the listening and transcribing is pretty important

[joe2758]

I'm almost convinced, but what if I still play with the record?

[CliffR]

Is it anything beyond ear training, which is obviously good, but is that the essential point of it? maybe "learning to listen carefully"

I was going to encourage you to transcribe more yourself earlier and decided not to, but now you've asked a great question, so I'll give you my perspective.

When I was young, all my musician friends had way better ears than I did. They could sing Beatles harmonies together, seemingly pick things up from records easily, etc. I never even tried transcribing, despite being told how important it is. I even suspected I was tone deaf. But when I took lessons with Christian, it was something he insisted upon. So I did it. It was always my least favourite part of practice, but I was pretty surprised to I did much better than I expected, and it got easier with time. After I stopped taking lessons, I let the skill go. A couple of days ago I decided to try again, on the melody for Sunny Side Of The Street (the Dizzy+Sonnys version). It started out great - I found the first note immediately. My finger went straight to it on the fretboard without thinking. Then it got harder. I got the first two bars down (most of the second is silent), and then got stuck and dispirited. Next day I took it into Transcribe, slowed it down and got the first four bars down. I felt pretty good about that. I agree that only spending a short amount of time on it per session is a good idea, particularly if you find it a struggle.

Other than just ear training, you get to learn about the varying note lengths the greats use, the accents, the - dare I say it - slurs, and you begin to recognise patterns. You stop (sometimes) thinking 'what note is this next one?' and instead recognise you're in a little melodic cell you recognise: 'oh, he's playing an ascending diminished arpeggio'. I think it also helps you appreciate the music when listening, too, even casually. These things start leaping out at you.

[joe2758]

But I could slur so many notes in 10 minutes lol. thanks Cliff

[Christian Miller]

Another bit of advice I would give is don’t involve the guitar in the process until you can sing the phrase.

This is one I get pushback about, because most aren’t comfortable singing, but it really doesn’t matter if the singing is in tune or not. It’s to fix the musical idea in your head not someone else’s.

The guitar is really unhelpful in this stage. It will only serve to throw you off if you aren’t 100%.

The other thing is it will teach you to play with more intentionality.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[joe2758]

The reason I'm so skeptical these days is because I feel I had been misguided by a lot of, basically, unquestioned general wisdom.

I have certainly done transcribing... Charlie Christian and Miles I think mostly. Maybe two solos worth each spread out here and there. I did a Hawkins one...probably 20 random licks here and there...all stretched over a very long period. So not much, but I've done it.

I find it hard to disagree with world class teachers, but I do wonder "how much do I have to 'give it a chance'" before I can be a little bit "hmm. I'm not sure anymore."

[Christian Miller]

The reason I'm so skeptical these days is because I feel I had been misguided by a lot of, basically, unquestioned general wisdom.

I have certainly done transcribing... Charlie Christian and Miles I think mostly. Maybe two solos worth each spread out here and there. I did a Hawkins one...probably 20 random licks here and there...all stretched over a very long period. So not much, but I've done it.

I find it hard to disagree with world class teachers, but I do wonder "how much do I have to 'give it a chance'" before I can be a little bit "hmm. I'm not sure anymore."

Ok. I’ll try and argue for why it’s worth your while to do this sort of thing consistently.

I think it’s the main thing.

So this is not an endpoint, and it’s not a flex, but I just listened to that Raney solo above and I can play back the phrases after I hear them by and large, right away. As I dig into it I’m sure there’s some stuff that I’d have to puzzle out, but a lot of stuff I don’t need to transcribe these days.

it’s really no claim to fame. And I’m not an especially good musician. I got to wherever ever I am now through work. I didn’t used to be able to do that.

I know those phrases because I’ve transcribed a lot of bop and I know those words. This is what I mean by immersion.

The jazz players of the past had no word for it. It was just learning music. Paul Berliner tells some crazy stories about this stuff in his book, but I believe them. How many Wes solos has Ritchie Hart transcribed again? Hundreds?

So the terms ‘transcription’ and ‘ear training’ to me is a sign of failure of the modern music education. It should be the default.

It’s why I struggle so much a lot of the theory discourse tbh. I think it’s an avoidance strategy quite honestly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James W]

Maybe we are saying the same thing then.

I can only respond to specifics. If someone comes into a lesson and hasn't got the basics together, I will teach them a technique. It's not the only one out there, but it will do the job (hopefully). If someone has a developed technique and needs musical advice, I'll try and give that.



OK I was pushing back on what you'd said a bit, perhaps unnecessarily - but I don't think it's a worthless post. I think the link between Jimmy Raney and Allan is quite interesting, and shows how indebted fusion is to its bebop influences even when it isn't obvious. That lineage is relevant to the thread, I think?

You know, I should transcribe that Raney solo, might be a good video 'legato phrasing in jazz.'

Ok fair enough, it was worth it for the link between Raney and Holdsworth.

I should add the Raney solo Mr Beaumont posted to my list of things to transcribe.

[joe2758]

Ok fair enough, it was worth it for the link between Raney and Holdsworth.

I should add the Raney solo Mr Beaumont posted to my list of things to transcribe.

share it with me loll

[GuyBoden]

so much a lot of the theory discourse tbh. I think it’s an avoidance strategy quite honestly.

Yes, Jazz does seem to have an overreliant on Theory to the detriment of developing your ear.

If you play with older Pop/Rock players, they learn everything by ear.

But, in my opinion you can improve your ear at any age, if you work at it. Quote "consistently"

[Christian Miller]

Yes, Jazz does seem to have an overreliant on Theory to the detriment of developing your ear.

If you play with older Pop/Rock players, they learn everything by ear.

But, in my opinion you can improve your ear at any age, if you work at it. Quote "consistently"

Definitely!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk