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Yeah I mean there’s not much call for fast repetitive single string picking in straight ahead jazz.
There’s a bit more for gypsy jazz stuff but actually that’s what I had in mind. The single string stuff (like the famous two finger chromatic runs) seemed to need a totally different mechanic from the arpeggios and lines.
Actually I would say my own playing is more or less completely lacking in those sort of impressive repeater licks that people use to build fusion solos and so on. I suppose I should practice some really.
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10-14-2023 03:35 PM
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Not if you listen to neoclassical (I see you did say usually tho). Their melodic concept is as advanced as any jazz. It's ridiculous. I prefer the aesthetics of jazz, chug chug isn't my thing, but I like to listen to this for what's possible for making exciting or catchy melodies in jazz.
Originally Posted by bediles
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Yeah Breckerfan and bediles, you guys are wrong. Your top speed isn't how fast you can spaz your right hand without any requirements of hitting correct notes. It's the bottleneck of how fast you can accurately fret notes with your weaker non dominant hand. Having a fast tremolo picking speed in the right hand doesn't by definition mean you can match that speed with your left hand playing lines. Most players can't.
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Don't you play organ, bro? Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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Yes :P
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Ah but it can if you play with different fingerings. Originally Posted by ccroft
I think that's my main point. A lot of guitarists, especially in jazz, play lines organized around left hand economy, not through any conscious decision but just because that's how it feels natural. But the real hurdle to speed is the right hand (if we're talking about picking all or most of the notes anyway). So really, lines should be organized around the right hand. This is what I've been saying. If you can tremolo pick sixteenth notes comfortably at 150 bpm, you can play single string patterns like 1234 at that speed, it's just synchronization. If you can do that and understand which string changes come naturally to you, you can probably play 1234 across the strings at 150 bpm. And if you can do that, you can refinger a scale to be 4 notes per string, and barring the position shifting awkwardness your right hand can play that at 150 bpm too because mechanically it is identical. You can see how many possibilities there are if you play this game.
You mention Donna Lee, and you can totally play this game with that too. I'm a pretty strict economy picker and you can find fingerings for the head that are largely 3 note per string, which simplifies things mechanically a lot. I've done this with transcriptions a lot too. I was working on Coltranes solo on Oleo for a long time and just couldn't get the last 10 percent speed. I put it down for a couple months, relearned it with an entirely new fingering that consciously maximized economy picking, and with some more work I got it up to speed.
And some jazz players do talk about doing this. I think Cecil Alexander has talked about preferring even numbers of notes on a string because he is a USX economy player.
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I guess so. I just know it feels different. Maybe more from the wrist. I found a way to do it eventually that felt less prone to spasm. It’s fun for chords and so on. Originally Posted by bediles
But playing a line is a physical gesture to me. A lot of upstrokes just slot in as ‘bounces’ off strings. I feel the upstroke as an extension of the downstroke.
Tremolo picking is obviously fast alternation. It just feels totally different.
That’s just my experience. Maybe I have shit technique, but it seems to work ok and I think I lack time to relearn again haha.
I don’t think it’s possible to draw so much of a general rule. EVH is a very good example of a player who had a radically different way of tremolo picking to how he normally played.Many use the exact same mechanics for both. Especially the really speedy rock guys.. well some have multiple techniques too.. anyways... I just think there's something to learn from them even if you don't like the music or their harmonic/improvisational conception is usually limited.
Alternate pickers tend to do everything the same way. That’s the reward for the buy in of being able to do it. I’m not an alt picker. Maybe more so these days.
Otoh on a purely technical level I think I’m more interested in the very consistent and accurate articulation of players like Adam Rogers and Jonathan Kreisberg at that up tempo swing area to the raw speed exhibited by shred speed demons. Dan Wilson’s unfailing pocket and dexterity. Pasquale’s pianistic approach. These are the things my fellow jazz players tend to be wowed by too.
It relates more to the technical problems I encounter in my music. I’m not trying to play stunt rock, but music that is often highly non-guitaristic and demanding of a high level of pocket and rhythmic accuracy even if it’s not as blazing fast all the time (though it can be sometimes.)
OTOH in terms of being wowed technically, it’s rarely sheer speed that does it for me these days. Anything involving fast and even cross picking. Very hard. Execution of stuff that requires control. Some things you don’t know are hard unless you’ve tried and failed to them yourself haha.
There are rock players who have a more linear fusion/jazzy approach. Martin Miller is a good example. I actually think the dial has moved more that way for many of the modern prog metal players. They are often quite jazz influenced. But tbh I listen to jazz players because I generally prefer the music. I don’t listen so much to guitar for its own sake.Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-14-2023 at 04:15 PM.
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I don't think I've said anything about "spazing" your right hand. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
I've said if you have reliable tremolo picking technique that you can control and play in time, that will translate to single string picking speed. It's just a matter of synchronization.
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No, there's also a bottleneck of what your weaker non dominant hand is capable of. Players can't by definition necessarily get it up to the same speed as their right while playing lines and synced. That's more the definition of a player's top speed.
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I would wager most players could hammer on 1234 at 150 bpm sixteenth notes with some practice. I think having reliable, consistent tremolo picking above that speed is more difficult. I think the ceiling on your right hand in general is lower than on your left hand. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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You're incorrect. I guarantee you that I as a retired crappy guitarist could tremolo pick with my right hand only faster than you could hammer any viable lines with your left hand only.
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Thanks for the insight. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I don’t think it’s possible to draw so much of a general rule. EVH is a very good example of a player who had a radically different way of tremolo picking to how he normally played.You're right. Eddy would be the poster child of having diff techniques. My point was that if your trem was similar, it would translate better to other parts of your playing.This was the standard in my early instruction and as mentioned previously on the forum, getting your pure alternate together at the speed of jazz (stealing that one from reg) is hard and I think requires more maintenance/is more error prone.Alternate pickers tend to do everything the same way. That’s the reward for the buy in of being able to do it. I’m not an alt picker. Maybe more so these days.
Sometimes I feel like guitar is the dumbest jazz instrument (other than chromatic harmonica). It's tough to play at a high level. Sax and piano were always ahead amongst young aspiring pros in school. Save for some real monsters.Otoh on a purely technical level I think I’m more interested in the very consistent and accurate articulation of players like Adam Rogers and Jonathan Kreisberg at that up tempo swing area to the raw speed exhibited by shred speed demons. Dan Wilson’s unfailing pocket and dexterity. Pasquale’s pianistic approach. These are the things my fellow jazz players tend to be wowed by too.
It relates more to the technical problems I encounter in my music. I’m not trying to play stunt rock, but music that is often highly non-guitaristic and demanding of a high level of pocket and rhythmic accuracy even if it’s not as blazing fast all the time (though it can be sometimes.)
OTOH in terms of being wowed technically, it’s rarely sheer speed that does it for me these days. Anything involving fast and even cross picking. Very hard. Execution of stuff that requires control. Some things you don’t know are hard unless you’ve tried and failed to them yourself haha.
This music bores me TBH, not saying it's bad, who am I to say but we all have our preferences.There are rock players who have a more linear fusion/jazzy approach. Martin Miller is a good example. I actually think the dial has moved more that way for many of the modern prog metal players. They are often quite jazz influenced. But tbh I listen to jazz players because I generally prefer the music. I don’t listen so much to guitar for its own sake.
I agree, speed for speed's sake, not as impressed anymore. Even long lines without much rhythmic variation bores me now, used to be a big Martino head.
My main point always is that if someone has a speed limit, to investigate some solutions. Jazz music, bop, post bop etc is typically played by musicians with high instumental mastery, guitar is no different and is typically left behind at the semi-pro level and below. There's info out there on how to pick now and there's no such thing as a genetic speed limit that will affect you at music tempos (esp for Jazz). There's a reason why manouche jazzers on the whole have better picking chops than mainstream jazzers but many are lost not knowing what approached/mechanics are out there.
On a completely different note, to the OP... you could always say f this picking garbage and just try to LH slur into as many downbeats as your lines will alow. Another approach and will sound more modern. I like picking though.. to a fault for sure ha.
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Actually I think he's correct - or at least in my experience. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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maybe as a retired crappy guitarist, you’re not the authority on this one? Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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Might it actually vary from person to person?
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But again that's not what I said. I said, consistent, reliable tremolo picking (can you do it for a minute straight with good rhythm and even tone) and hammering on 1234. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
My point is that I think the mechanical weak spot is the right hand. It's doing a more complicated task. So we should be structuring our lines to take advantage of the things that come naturally to our right hand. If you can pick 1234 on a single string, mechanically to your right hand you can feed it any 4 note sequence on a single string. If you can pick 1234 across the strings, same deal. But there's a reason few guitarists can alternate pick up and down a caged or 3nps scale fast, because you're asking your right hand to do several different mechanical motions. I've had a lot more success rearranging fingerings to work with my economy picking than finding the easiest left hand fingering and trying to get my picking to fit that.
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That’s probably why most jazz guitarists don’t in fact do pure alternate picking (including Reg.) Originally Posted by bediles
But on an entirely sane and non toxic thread elsewhere, one of the members here who actually knows a damn thing about jazz guitar revealed to me even some of those that I thought picked every note strictly alternate - specifically Pat Martino, do nothing of the sort. Most of us slur some of the notes. The trick is to do it artfully…
Yepsies. But I would like info that’s more geared at jazzers. we have different needs. But we are negligible in the grand guitar scheme of things.Sometimes I feel like guitar is the dumbest jazz instrument (other than chromatic harmonica). It's tough to play at a high level. Sax and piano were always ahead amongst young aspiring pros in school. Save for some real monsters.
This music bores me TBH, not saying it's bad, who am I to say but we all have our preferences.
I agree, speed for speed's sake, not as impressed anymore. Even long lines without much rhythmic variation bores me now, used to be a big Martino head.
My main point always is that if someone has a speed limit, to investigate some solutions. Jazz music, bop, post bop etc is typically played by musicians with high instumental mastery, guitar is no different and is typically left behind at the semi-pro level and below. There's info out there on how to pick now and there's no such thing as a genetic speed limit that will affect you at music tempos (esp for Jazz). There's a reason why manouche jazzers on the whole have better picking chops than mainstream jazzers but many are lost not knowing what approached/mechanics are out there.
Haha see above ….On a completely different note, to the OP... you could always say f this picking garbage and just try to LH slur into as many downbeats as your lines will alow. Another approach and will sound more modern. I like picking though.. to a fault for sure ha.
the phrase is king!
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Of course it varies from person to person, but there can be general trends within the variation. And hey, I might be totally wrong. I'm going off of my own experience and my interpretation of what I've seen in other guitarists I know and professional guitarists I've seen. As with all statements from nameless nerds on forums, take it with a healthy pinch of salt. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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One does not simply watch a PG video and continue to play guitar.
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You're not wrong Brecker. I agree the right hand is the limiter. After all, the left hand uses 4 fingers. I've posted before about finding fingerings to help the right hand. It's tough to hit a limit and then realize there's a better fingering and basically starting over.
I first learned Freedom Jazz as a lot of 1 note per string 4ths. I went back to the tune a few years ago and I realized if I played 2 notes on 1 string and skipped a string to do it again I could play it much better.
And that's really what I was saying about tremolo. I can't play the first 4 notes of Freedom Jazz, or the first 3 of Joy Spring at the same speed I can tremolo. It's a different technique. Especially the string skipping part. You have to travel so much farther.
But developing a fast tremolo and fingerings to take advantage of that sure isn't gonna hurt. I'm the guy who said:
BTW: Check out trombone if you think harmonica or guitar are dumb :-) I don't know how they do it. Though I did get a little insight when I tried that Martino lick that Zucker posted where you slide 3 frets with the index and tremolo at exactly the right speed.But like we always say, guitar learning is cumulative. Seemingly unrelated study will cross over to other areas.
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On that we can agree. No one will ever be as cool as PG in that vid haha Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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PG stands for Pasquale Grasso here
get that filthy rock and roller outa here
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Paul Gilbert is an incredible technician. He has a bunch of sequential exercises I practice every day. Originally Posted by BreckerFan
He even played Brubeck's Blue Rondo a la Turk once. He started playing Misty once at a seminar, and the neanderthals started booing him!
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The true speed limit is quality control - not how fast you can play, but how fast do you hear? As soon as you play faster than you can hear, your quality control drops to zero... you might as well be stone deaf.
Some styles of music permit a margin of "deafness of quality control" for dramatic, or theatrical, or ironic effect.
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