Three Finger Guitar Technique

[grahambop]

Kind of my feeling about it really. I too learned classical, then blues/rock, then jazz.

Some people like there to be a right and wrong answer to things... I'm sure if you sat down and played some Dowland or something, you would do so with perfectly appropriate left hand technique.

I think some classical teachers can be a bit 'never do anything that is not this technique' in the fear that it might 'ruin' their students technique. Maybe understandable if the student in question has a potential career as a concert guitarist, but even then I would question this type of stance.

Singing teachers can be like that - 'don't sing jazz if you sing classical etc.' How boring, music in little boxes. Some people like it that way though, makes them happy.

Yes, one thing I like about the guitar is that the same basic configuration of 6 strings and tuning, means anyone familiar with the guitar can have a go at such different styles of music if they want to. I've also dabbled in slide guitar occasionally. I'm not that great at it, but it's a hell of a lot of fun!

I don't understand 'boxes' either. I love Bach as much as Bird!

[joe2758]

Like Graham I come from a classical background. I found Garrison Fewell's book to be a very good introduction to more of a 3 finger approach; sort of let me "try it on." It does make a difference in sound and feel. I say why not do both? I can't play though.

Anyway, my point was Garrison Fewell's book is a good way to try on the 3 finger approach if you never have.

[MarkRhodes]

Mark,
You're right. Ellis' book also teach the shape system. I think of Herb as a predominately three finger player in that he, along with Kessel, Mary Osborne, Wes and damn near everyone else, belongs to the generation that was immediately influenced by Charlie Christian.
Regards,
Jerome

Herb certainly was of that era, and a master. He was admired by Freddie Green, Barney Kessel, and Joe Pass (among many others.) But he used his pinky a good deal, and the fingerings he gives in his books---and which he recommends students pay close attention to---use the pinky often.

Here is Herb doing "Sweet Georgia Brown". He uses his first three fingers more than he uses his pinky but I wouldn't call this "three-finger" playing. If others want to, I won't argue the point. Whatever he is doing is what I want to do.

[mr. beaumont]

Again, we're trying to put parameters on technique that people NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT.

Three-Finger Playing...to me it just means the player uses three fingers mostly and maybe opts to stretch with the ring in some situations where another would opt for pinky. It doesn't mean the pinky never gets used when playing single note lines (although if you watch some, the pinky is rarer than with others)

[targuit]

Joe Pass certainly utilized the fifth finger on his fretting hand.

Just a different style. For those who might have known Garrison Fewell personally, did he use the three finger method? I ask because the one time I saw him perform live, I bought one of his CDs - A Blue Deeper than Blue. He autographed my copy with his signature and "Thanks for listening." Above the f in for he inscribed this " 3 ". I always wondered at the significance if any. Trinity, three fingers?

[vintagelove]

As I said in my post upstream, there are people who come here thinking that classical guitar training trumps everything. However, we are not discussing classical guitar here.

The discussion is about jazz guitar and the people who played it that we have come to regard as the Giants and Innovators and how THEY played the instrument. The discussion isn't about Segovia, Bream, Parkening, Ghiglia, Williams, Yamashita or any other classical guitarist. That's apples and oranges.

Again as I said upstream "Make your choice". If you want to use four fingers, go for it.

But please remember that we are discussing swing and bebop guitar. The people who played it, played it the way they played it and no amount of discussion or supposition will change that fact.

Interesting how you ignore every argument made and just say "we're talking about jazz".


Do they both have six strings and frets?
Do they both require playing melodies interspersed with chordal material?

Everything from Bach to bebop to yngwie is played on the guitar, why purposely limit your technique???


Remind me where in the OP it stated were only talking about swing and bebop guitar... But since we are.

There was this guy, I can't seem to remember his name, Joe Pass maybe. I heard he was a halfway decent bebop player. I saw him use his pinky once.

This other guy too, Benson I think they called him? I'm sure I saw him use his pinky...

They must just be hack "classical players", I mean I read on the interwebz you can't play jazz with your pinky...

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah...Monk never said that.

[monk]

Again, we're trying to put parameters on technique that people NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT.

Three-Finger Playing...to me it just means the player uses three fingers mostly and maybe opts to stretch with the ring in some situations where another would opt for pinky. It doesn't mean the pinky never gets used when playing single note lines (although if you watch some, the pinky is rarer than with others)

Yes! Yes! Yes!

As has been stated before, the operative descriptor here is "Predominately".

In our discussions of how the swing and bebop guitarists played, I don't recall anyone stating that anyone used three fingers "Exclusively", yet there is always someone who insists on pointing out that someone played note nine in measure 31 of his solo and is, therefore, not a three fingered player.

[vintagelove]

Herb certainly was of that era, and a master. He was admired by Freddie Green, Barney Kessel, and Joe Pass (among many others.) But he used his pinky a good deal, and the fingerings he gives in his books---and which he recommends students pay close attention to---use the pinky often.

Here is Herb doing "Sweet Georgia Brown". He uses his first three fingers more than he uses his pinky but I wouldn't call this "three-finger" playing. If others want to, I won't argue the point. Whatever he is doing is what I want to do.

Looks like a whole lot of pinky action there to me. Exactly where I would expect it too.



Looks and sounds pretty good to me.

[vintagelove]

Yes! Yes! Yes!

As has been stated before, the operative descriptor here is "Predominately".

In our discussions of how the swing and bebop guitarists played, I don't recall anyone stating that anyone used three fingers "Exclusively", yet there is always someone who insists on pointing out that someone played note nine in measure 31 of his solo and is, therefore, not a three fingered player.

well, if they use four fingers....


Where do we draw the line? 6 pinkys for every hundred notes? 16? 60?


Or is it more likely many are actually 4 finger players, who use the pinky a bit less?

[mr. beaumont]

So, I must really be missing something...why does it matter at all?

[mr. beaumont]

Yes! Yes! Yes!

As has been stated before, the operative descriptor here is "Predominately".

In our discussions of how the swing and bebop guitarists played, I don't recall anyone stating that anyone used three fingers "Exclusively", yet there is always someone who insists on pointing out that someone played note nine in measure 31 of his solo and is, therefore, not a three fingered player.

Exactly.

I am predominantly a three finger player. But I certainly use my pinky for some stuff. But I'd say the big thing is, my instinct is to reach the extra fret with the ring in many situations where someone else might use their pinky.

It comes from a rock/blues background--always wanting to lead with a stronger finger in case I wanted to bend/vibrato a note.

And it really doesn't matter much at all

[kevets]

Like Graham I come from a classical background. I found Garrison Fewell's book to be a very good introduction to more of a 3 finger approach; sort of let me "try it on." It does make a difference in sound and feel. I say why not do both? I can't play though.

Anyway, my point was Garrison Fewell's book is a good way to try on the 3 finger approach if you never have.

Thanks for this. I've been playing classical for 20 years, and am just starting into jazz. I'm going to stick with my hard earned right hand fingerpicking technique, and the music I am most interested in is chord melody, so I may be fine with the classical LH. At any rate, altering your LH after 20 years of doing it one way is going to be tough!

Funny though, seeing the diagonal scales. Anybody that studies classical is familiar with the Segovia scales. These scales are diagonal in nature and use 4 fingers and the thumb on the back of the neck.

[christianm77]

Thanks for this. I've been playing classical for 20 years, and am just starting into jazz. I'm going to stick with my hard earned right hand fingerpicking technique, and the music I am most interested in is chord melody, so I may be fine with the classical LH. At any rate, altering your LH after 20 years of doing it one way is going to be tough!

Funny though, seeing the diagonal scales. Anybody that studies classical is familiar with the Segovia scales. These scales are diagonal in nature and use 4 fingers and the thumb on the back of the neck.

I did think of the Segovia scales actually...

Adam Rogers, Jim Hall, Lage Lund, George Van Eps, Charlie Bird, Jonathan Kreisberg, Gilad Heckselman.... Classical Left Hand players... I don't think its necessary to relearn your technique - unless you are curious and want to experiment with a new way of doing things....

BTW I did totally relearn my pick technique after 20 years. But I still had my old one available to me. Learning a new way of doing things does not mean forgetting the old info. Just putting that out there....

[lawson-stone]

What I don't understand about this debate is a few things.

First, the bebop language was formed and formulated on saxophones and trumpets, and then on piano. No guitarists were really major contributors to the basic vocabulary, the language of bebop. Saxophones, trumpets and pianos also are played without any reference to whether a guitarist playing those lines uses 2, 3 or 4 fingers. The lines were formed without any reference at all to the guitar. So I don't see how the 3 vs. 4 finger debate has anything to do with whether bebop is better played one way or the other.

Second, many of the "greats" were self-taught and famous for some of their highly individualistic technique. I can easily imagine how someone who is self-taught would prefer to work with 3 fingers instead of four. You get where you want to go faster and easier, at least at first. Having an inconceivable amount of talent behind a limited technique does not make that technique particularly useful for people who lack the inconceivable level of talent. Indeed, most would consider Joe Pass a pretty decent bebop player, and he had initially formal instruction in the classical vein, and he was clearly a full 4-finger guy. So anyone saying 3 or 4 is preferable for playing bebop likely is not making an accurate statement.

Third, i wonder if most of the 4 finger players are also players who excel at solo guitar? I mean, we talk about playing out of chord-shapes. But if you are playing solo guitar, you are actually holding the shape, at least partly, that you are playing out of, which means you have probably 2 fingers committed to the chord shape, or portion of it. That means if you are going to play a line while your chord is sounding, you perforce must use your 3rd and 4th fingers.

Fourth, I can't figure out why one would have a 4th finger there and not want to use it to the full. I find the guitar hard enough to play. I don't see what the advantage would be of reducing my resources.

[christianm77]

What I don't understand about this debate is a few things.

First, the bebop language was formed and formulated on saxophones and trumpets, and then on piano. No guitarists were really major contributors to the basic vocabulary, the language of bebop. Saxophones, trumpets and pianos also are played without any reference to whether a guitarist playing those lines uses 2, 3 or 4 fingers. The lines were formed without any reference at all to the guitar. So I don't see how the 3 vs. 4 finger debate has anything to do with whether bebop is better played one way or the other.

Second, many of the "greats" were self-taught and famous for some of their highly individualistic technique. I can easily imagine how someone who is self-taught would prefer to work with 3 fingers instead of four. You get where you want to go faster and easier, at least at first. Having an inconceivable amount of talent behind a limited technique does not make that technique particularly useful for people who lack the inconceivable level of talent. Indeed, most would consider Joe Pass a pretty decent bebop player, and he had initially formal instruction in the classical vein, and he was clearly a full 4-finger guy. So anyone saying 3 or 4 is preferable for playing bebop likely is not making an accurate statement.

Third, i wonder if most of the 4 finger players are also players who excel at solo guitar? I mean, we talk about playing out of chord-shapes. But if you are playing solo guitar, you are actually holding the shape, at least partly, that you are playing out of, which means you have probably 2 fingers committed to the chord shape, or portion of it. That means if you are going to play a line while your chord is sounding, you perforce must use your 3rd and 4th fingers.

Fourth, I can't figure out why one would have a 4th finger there and not want to use it to the full. I find the guitar hard enough to play. I don't see what the advantage would be of reducing my resources.

Two words. Jimmy Raney. More than anyone else of his era he was inspired by horn players and his approach was to play the way he did. Transcribing horn lines, I naturally gravitate towards a similar technique...

Also Raney played the cello.

I do find the description of masterful players who didn't happen to go through the academic schooling system as 'self taught' as patronising in the extreme. I know it's not meant that way, but these are the greats.

It's like they must be stupid and ignorant because they didn't go to music college. But these were players making both conscious and intuitive decisions about their art. Why did Wes play with his thumb? Choice.

Would we talk the same way about Segovia or Bream, who themselves were 'self taught'? Almost no one taught the classical guitar formally in the 1930s and 40s.

You only have to read Bream's biography to realise that he was struggling for bits of information just as the jazzers were. He couldn't study classical guitar - there was no faculty.

Wes wouldn't have been a better player if he adopted Segovian left hand technqiue. I'm not sure if he would have been worse, but many of his accomplishments would have been considered impossible from the point of view of conventional technique.

So long as Wes is better than almost everyone ever to play jazz guitar, guitar teachers should be learning from him not dismissing him as self taught. The man manifestly had a fantastic technique. His movements graceful and economical with great speed, accuracy and musicality.

You have to respect it. And learn from it, I think

[mr. beaumont]

It's not patronizing at all. It just means they did what worked for them, as opposed to what others told them worked.

Or scratch that, maybe they did do what others told them worked, they just didn't get told it in a classroom...at any rate...

I'm starting to think there's a very different view of self-taught/schooled musicians over there in Europe.

[monk]

two words. Jimmy raney. More than anyone else of his era he was inspired by horn players and his approach was to play the way he did. Transcribing horn lines, i naturally gravitate towards a similar technique...

Also raney played the cello.

I do find the description of masterful players who didn't happen to go through the academic schooling system as 'self taught' as patronising in the extreme. i know it's not meant that way, but these are the greats.

It's like they must be stupid and ignorant because they didn't go to music college. But these were players making both conscious and intuitive decisions about their art. Why did wes play with his thumb? Choice.

Wes wouldn't have been a better player if he adopted segovian left hand technqiue. I'm not sure if he would have been worse, but many of his accomplishments would have been considered impossible from the point of view of conventional technique.

So long as wes is better than almost everyone ever to play jazz guitar, guitar teachers should be learning from him not dismissing him as self taught. The man manifestly had a fantastic technique. His movements graceful and economical with great speed, accuracy, grace and musicality.

You have to respect it. And learn from it, i think

Hear, hear!

[christianm77]

I went into a bit of an edit frenzy, so just wanted to pull out this point:

Would we talk the same way about Segovia or Bream, who themselves were 'self taught'? Almost no one taught the classical guitar formally in the 1930s and 40s (or earlier)

You only have to read Bream's biography to realise that he was struggling for bits of information just as the jazzers were. He couldn't study classical guitar - there was no provision for it.

[paulkogut]

I’m sure there are nuances to playing other instruments that I’m not aware of, but I don’t know of any other axe that’s as ‘customizable’ and ‘personal’ as the guitar. Left hand fingerings, right hand technique, posture, string gauge, body type, , amps, effects are all choices that give a player certain options, while making other things impossible. One choice a player could make is to explore the fingerings and articulations used by Charlie Christian inspired swing players such as Bucky Pizzarelli, and George Barnes , then brought into the bebop era by Wes Montgomery and Jimmy Rainey .There’s plenty of video evidence of the commonalities in these players left hand approach, and in guitar scene shorthand, they get referred to as “3-finger’ players. Perhaps that’s an unfortunate oversimplification. No one has stated they NEVER use the 4th finger. but there’s a different level of use, as compared to someone like Joe Pass. The guitar is a complex instrument, it’s worth spending some time considering if the fingerings that got you started are the fingerings that will take you where you want to go.


PK

[lawson-stone]

A lot of great points from Monk. If you're inclined to explore the fingerings used by Wes, Jimmy Rainey, et. al., great! If you're happy with your concept, there's no need to change anything. Also great! But a few arguments that get made every time this subject comes up don't really hold water.

"I don't want to copy anybody....." With very few exceptions (Stanley Jordan? Holdsworth?) everyone playing today has copied someone's fingerings. Wes and Django seem at least as worth copying as Bill Leavitt or the guy who wrote the Guitar Grimoire.

"You wouldn't teach a beginner Wes/Metheney/Bernstein's fingerings...." I suppose that's true. But you don't teach calculus before addition and subtraction, or Shakespeare before Charlotte's Web. What I would teach a beginner is that the guitar has many fingering possibilities, and with more experience, you learn more options for how to play.

And, unquestionably, a lot of great guitar music has been played with classical technique, Leavitt fingerings, or any number of other approaches. . But for people that are drawn to a certain swing to bebop type of phrasing, it's worth exploring the fingerings that make that phrasing possible.

PK

Did the fingerings "make that phrasing possible" in the sense that they started out with 4 and said, wow I can't do this with my pinky, I better drop to 3 fingers... or did they do what we'd all do, naturally default to the 1st 3 fingers, find a way to do it, and felt no need to go farther? I don't think the fingerings made the phrasing possible. I think that's just how it fell out, and since most playing was learned by copying in the early days, folks copied what seemed to work. It didn't mean that was necessarily the only or best way.

maybe these players we rightly revere could have done even more, if that's possible, by developing more of a whole-hand technique?

I'm just asking the questions here, and questioning the logic of "the fingerings... made that phrasing possible." That's open to question.

[christianm77]

The question for me remains:

Why favour the approach one self taught guitarist (Segovia) who didn't even play jazz, over another (say, Wes), who did, better than almost anyone else? That's politics maaaaaan....

[paulkogut]

If I was looking to investigate how fingering shapes phrasing, I'd compare the articulation and time feel of Wes Montgomery and Joe Pass on similar tunes and tempos.

PK

[mr. beaumont]

The question for me remains:

Why favour the approach one self taught guitarist (Segovia) who didn't even play jazz, over another (say, Wes), who did, better than almost anyone else? That's politics maaaaaan....

I guess my question is..."who's favoring it? jazz school?"

[lawson-stone]

Two words. Jimmy Raney. More than anyone else of his era he was inspired by horn players and his approach was to play the way he did. Transcribing horn lines, I naturally gravitate towards a similar technique...

Also Raney played the cello.

I do find the description of masterful players who didn't happen to go through the academic schooling system as 'self taught' as patronising in the extreme. I know it's not meant that way, but these are the greats.

It's like they must be stupid and ignorant because they didn't go to music college. But these were players making both conscious and intuitive decisions about their art. Why did Wes play with his thumb? Choice.

Would we talk the same way about Segovia or Bream, who themselves were 'self taught'? Almost no one taught the classical guitar formally in the 1930s and 40s.

You only have to read Bream's biography to realise that he was struggling for bits of information just as the jazzers were. He couldn't study classical guitar - there was no faculty.

Wes wouldn't have been a better player if he adopted Segovian left hand technqiue. I'm not sure if he would have been worse, but many of his accomplishments would have been considered impossible from the point of view of conventional technique.

So long as Wes is better than almost everyone ever to play jazz guitar, guitar teachers should be learning from him not dismissing him as self taught. The man manifestly had a fantastic technique. His movements graceful and economical with great speed, accuracy and musicality.

You have to respect it. And learn from it, I think

Citing someone's name is not really a reason. It's more of a put-down, an attempt at bullying. Do you think i don't know about Jimmy Raney after listening to this music for 30 years and trying my best to play it?

Gosh I meant no disrespect to anyone, especially not to any great player. As one who is self-taught not only in guitar, but Egyptian Hieroglyphic, certain ancient cuneiform dialects, ancient Latin, archaeology and a few other things that I promise are more complicated than the guitar, I have no disdain of the self-taught. In fact, I have learned so much by the self-taught method that I can promise you, the self-taught often miss enormous tracts of important knowledge about their chosen subject, however brilliant they might become at it.

I think humans naturally look for the easiest way to get from Point A to point B and don't do more unless they are compelled. When compelled, their first move is to try a variant on what already works.

I admire Jimmy Raney a great deal, but again likely he brought his cello training to the guitar. That does not make it the best or most universal approach to the guitar. It's no disrespect to say that.

I personally love Wes Montgomery's music but I don't engage in these pissing contests about who is "the best." I prefer Joe Pass to Wes Montgomery and Jimmy Raney, without claiming he is "better." He was an inveterate pinky-user and periodically threw down a pretty decent bop line.

And simply saying a great player did something doesn't make it a universally applicable system. Otherwise all gypsy guitarists would be sticking their left hands into fires or duct-taping their fingers back.

You gotta use a little logic folks when you make an argument. Generalizing from individual cases requires a number of conditions to be met. And it never proves that other means are not also equally useful, even if not tried by a majority of practitioners.

So I still don't think the actual "player-ly" answer to my questions was given in your post. You know I respect you Chris, and i guess I hoped for a better reply than this from you.