Three Finger Guitar Technique

[monk]

Several people here have mentioned Pat Martino's book Linear Expressions. Those who've studied the book or PM's videos are aware that he employs what he refers to as "Line Forms" to improvise.

Even though PM uses a linear basis for his improvisations, the line forms are related to chord forms. Specifically, five minor 7th shapes.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, many early swing and bebop guitarists used chord shapes as a point of reference and predominantly played with 3 LH fingers using the pinky as an auxiliary digit.

Here is a recent video of Pat Martino playing at a workshop. There are some good LH close ups. Notice that he employs a predominantly 3 finger approach similar to Christian, Wes and the older players. I thought this might be of interest in that his "real life" approach is different than the fingerings given in his book.

Enjoy,
monk

[TommyD]

A really close look at your utube tape reveals, I think, that P.M does use his LH pinky on the fret board. He doesn't use it as much as I hoped he would, but it does snap down to the strings once in a while. His (and other master players) mostly-3-finger approach discourages me though. I've spent years developing 4 LH fingers playing style. Three finger playing is a whole new ball of wax; it means more hand-jumping - a little arithmetic makes it look like 25% more!
I can see why guys do the 3-finger thing though - the ring finger is the slowest flexion responder, and probably ends up slowing us down. There's an anatomical reason. For a good portion of it's length, its flexor tendon is physically attached to the pinky tendon. All the others are independent for their full length.
Can I say it? Scheiss!!

tommy/

[TommyD]

CORRECTION; I should have said that the ring finger ends up slowing us down when we try to play using 4-finger technique.

[monk]

TommyD,
A really close look at my post reveals that I said "predominantly played with 3 LH fingers using the pinky as an auxiliary digit" and "he employs a predominantly 3 finger approach similar to Christian, Wes and the older players"

I didn't say that PM or Wes or anyone else used 3 fingers exclusively nor did I state that they never used their pinkies. The key word is predominantly.

I watched the YouTube video carefully several times before I made my post and tried to be clear in my statements.

My main point is that Martino's real life playing approach is very similar to other great jazz guitarists and is different from what is given in his book, which leads me to believe that the editor is at fault. Unfortunately, the people who suffer are the people who buy the book in good faith.

I can understand your frustration. I was in the same boat as you once, trying to play everything with 4 fingers and using scale forms as my reference. However, for me, things became much easier when I switched and it didn't take that much time.

Your anatomical observations are right on the money and there is the added factor that the ring finger and pinky share a nerve bundle that make alternate articulation difficult.

Regards,
monk

[TommyD]

Monk said: "Your anatomical observations are right on the money and there is the added factor that the ring finger and pinky share a nerve bundle that make alternate articulation difficult.

Regards,
monk"

They ought to be. I dissected a hand in anatomy class. The lack of freedom of individual articulation though, can be traced more to the unusual tendon arrangement than to neural factors.
t/

[musicalbodger]

I once hit my index finger with an axe (a chopper not a guitar) - by accident, not on purpose - while I was have lessons from a classical guitar teacher. I had to spend about a month with it strapped up and managed to play my way through my exercises without too much trouble - had to re-finger a few moves, but was surprised how well I was able to keep playing. Apart from the pain and blood loss it was actually beneficial

What were you doing with an axe in your classical guitar lesson? Playing "Chopsticks"?

[musicalbodger]

Sometimes I'll immobilize my index finger by wrapping it all up in tape, or tape a short pencil to it or sumpin', and proceed to play my guitar, do solos, scales, chords, etc, with the available 3 fingers. What I found was, the brain kind of naturally compensates for your immobilized index finger and starts sending messages to the other fingers on what they have to do without thinking too much. This works the shit out of your pinky and really forces it to another level of dexterity. Think Django. The brain really does compensate. When you restore use of the index finger, it feels like there's nothing you can't do. Has anybody else ever done anything like this?

That's a cool idea! Never tried it but I'll give it a whirl soon. Have you tried it immobilising other fingers, CG?

[Metal Fingers]

I've noticed Pat Metheny doesn't use his pinky all that much,but whats the point of copying another player...to be a copy cat?

[medblues]

In an ensemble context, the guitar being a rhythm instrument with added harmonic capability and added lead capability, two fingers should be enough. But as a solo instrument, using all the fingers available on both right and left hands (including both thumbs) would certainly increase its sophistication. I can't imagine Ralph Towner, Charlie Hunter, Martin Taylor or Tuck Andress using only 2-3 fingers.

[MarkRhodes]

Fascinating thread. I'm late to the party, but I'd like to thank everyone that's contributed.

Yes, this thread has been dormant awhile but it is new to me too, and the topic---'(Mainly) three fingers or four?'---remains relevant.

I was assigned Martino's "Linear Expressions" by my first jazz teacher. I think those five "activities" are among the things I know best all over the guitar (-at least as far as my current model and big hands allow me to roam).

Seeing Pat play with (mainly) three fingers doesn't make me want to do that. I'm a four-finger guy. It helps with the Herb Ellis stuff I love so much. Herb worked the pinky.

[princeplanet]

Does any think that three fingered players need to roam around the neck more than 4 fingered out of necessity, and if so, would it follow then that 4 fingered players needn't change position as often as some seem to, in order to express their lines?

I say this because moving positions often creates disadvantages- accuracy and speed can be compromised, as well as being able to conceptualize many lines /devices/ concepts etc in at least 5 positions in all 12 keys....

Now I know that three fingered playing (or even 2!) can actually be a benefit in terms of strength and control, which is why the 3 greats (CC DR and WM) sound so "strong"... but there were, I presume, lines they could not play that 4 strong fingers might?

[destinytot]

Since reading Monk's great posts on this thread, I've tried playing off chord shapes. I was surprised at the lines that suggested themselves when I did this on the top four strings.

What was more surprising to me, however, was that I felt most comfortable angling my left-hand and using three fingers (especially when playing off shapes with roots on the fifth and sixth strings). The interplay between a firm, precise fretting hand and a firm, precise picking hand really makes for notes played with conviction.

I also find that I need to adjust the position of my left hand and make a conscious effort in order to get my little finger to play its part in producing such notes, that I can do this, but that - for me - this finger seems to work best in scale-based lines.

[destinytot]

Hi princeplanet.

Does any think that three fingered players need to roam around the neck more than 4 fingered out of necessity, and if so, would it follow then that 4 fingered players needn't change position as often as some seem to, in order to express their lines?

I'd say yes to both. But, IMHO, where choice of fingering exists, the quality of tone would make the choice a 'no-brainer'.

I say this because moving positions often creates disadvantages- accuracy and speed can be compromised, as well as being able to conceptualize many lines /devices/ concepts etc in at least 5 positions in all 12 keys....

That really got me thinking. Not sure the last part of this sentence holds true if the three-finger player is playing off chord shapes, so I tried it out. When I played intervals/fragments within a chord shape I used three, but I used four if I played an arpeggio, which set up a line as soon as the fourth finger came into play.

Thanks for raising the question.

[MarkRhodes]

Since reading Monk's great posts on this thread, I've tried playing off chord shapes. I was surprised at the lines that suggested themselves when I did this on the top four strings.

What was more surprising to me, however, was that I felt most comfortable angling my left-hand and using three fingers (especially when playing off shapes with roots on the fifth and sixth strings). The interplay between a firm, precise fretting hand and a firm, precise picking hand really makes for notes played with conviction.

There's a lot there, alright. There's a reason they call those shapes "handy."

[princeplanet]

Hi princeplanet.



I'd say yes to both. But, IMHO, where choice of fingering exists, the quality of tone would make the choice a 'no-brainer'.



That really got me thinking. Not sure the last part of this sentence holds true if the three-finger player is playing off chord shapes, so I tried it out. When I played intervals/fragments within a chord shape I used three, but I used four if I played an arpeggio, which set up a line as soon as the fourth finger came into play.

Thanks for raising the question.

I'm not sure this addresses the question though, so permit me to rephrase.... If a 3 finger guy learns a line that has to move through 3 or 4 positions to complete it, surely he only knows one way to play that line, in all keys. With 4 fingers, I can play most of my lines without changing position. This means I can play the same line in 5 CAGED positions, so if I'm looking for a line over Bb7 and I'm in the 9th position, I can express any line I've mastered in all CAGED positions (or variations of...). But if I have a great 3 fingered line/device I learned for Eb7 that started in the 10th position and ended in the 2nd position, I can't fit it in without moving way up high and out of position.

My point is that 3 fingered guys with pet horizontal lines are limited in that way - whilst having advantages in other aspects. Comes down to what's important to each player I guess? BTW, I never notice 3 fingered piano players, sax players, or violin players (ok, maybe trumpet players! )....

[MarkRhodes]

I'm not sure this addresses the question though, so permit me to rephrase.... If a 3 finger guy learns a line that has to move through 3 or 4 positions to complete it, surely he only knows one way to play that line, in all keys.

Couple things. First, if one is using the "F-D-A" approach, there are only 3 positions, period. Second, one of the benefits of the 'shape' approach is that you associate lines with shapes. It's not an attempt to play any particular line everywhere it is possible to play it on a guitar. Consider the following example.

In his book "Rhythm Shapes" Herb Ellis provides a series of eight-bar lines for each of the three main "major" shapes. The lines for shape 1 (what I call the "long A" shape but Herb just calls "shape one") are not the same as the lines for shape 2 (-which looks like an "F" chord) and neither of those are the same as the lines for shape 3 (-the "D" shape. He's not trying to teach how to play line X everywhere on the guitar; he's teaching you how to play good jazz lines out of simple shapes. Not the same thing at all.

He also teaches lines that "combine the shapes" but there's no attempt to get you to play each line in every shape. That would defeat the purpose of the system!

[princeplanet]

Couple things. First, if one is using the "F-D-A" approach, there are only 3 positions, period. Second, one of the benefits of the 'shape' approach is that you associate lines with shapes. It's not an attempt to play any particular line everywhere it is possible to play it on a guitar. Consider the following example.

In his book "Rhythm Shapes" Herb Ellis provides a series of eight-bar lines for each of the three main "major" shapes. The lines for shape 1 (what I call the "long A" shape but Herb just calls "shape one") are not the same as the lines for shape 2 (-which looks like an "F" chord) and neither of those are the same as the lines for shape 3 (-the "D" shape. He's not trying to teach how to play line X everywhere on the guitar; he's teaching you how to play good jazz lines out of simple shapes. Not the same thing at all.

He also teaches lines that "combine the shapes" but there's no attempt to get you to play each line in every shape. That would defeat the purpose of the system!

OK, yes I see how that makes sense. Still, for someone like me who has invested a lot of time in learning lines in 5 positions, I could never abandon my own method. Maybe If I'd been taught the F_D_A thing from the start....

And I think I get why I'll never sound like the 3 finger guys, but that's ok, I'm going for me anyways. Infact, Im starting to realise that if I transcribe lines that were played with different fingerings, I may not ever get the attack or conviction right. I'm even finding that horn lines, as much as I love them, won't always sound convincing on the guitar either, whether I use 2, 3 or all ten fingers!

At some point I've understood that the interesting challenge for me is to construct my own unique system that allows me to express the sounds I want to make. Honestly, I'd rather be a failure at my own thing than yet another also ran that successfully copied someone else's idiosyncratic system. It's not classical violin fer chrissakes, there's no set pedagogy, there's no rules. That's what makes it exciting, and what attracted me to Jazz guitar in the first place.

[MarkRhodes]

OK, yes I see how that makes sense. Still, for someone like me who has invested a lot of time in learning lines in 5 positions, I could never abandon my own method. Maybe If I'd been taught the F_D_A thing from the start....

At some point I've understood that the interesting challenge for me is to construct my own unique system that allows me to express the sounds I want to make. Honestly, I'd rather be a failure at my own thing than yet another also ran that successfully copied someone else's idiosyncratic system. It's not classical violin fer chrissakes, there's no set pedagogy, there's no rules. That's what makes it exciting, and what attracted me to Jazz guitar in the first place.

The sound is the thing. If you like what you're getting, you're gold.

[destinytot]

pet horizontal lines

I see what you mean, but I meant improvising - starting from within a chord shape, listening and responding to ideas that come up.

Mind you, I do think what comes up may well be a pet line (that calls for four fingers ), but visualising shapes and leading with strong fingers can generate ideas. And pet lines are not necessarily a bad thing; for me, rhythm, dynamics and phrasing are what really elevate melodic improvisation.

I'm looking forward to experimenting with playing off chord shapes on the upper strings and in the upper register. This method strikes me as a great way to get inside the changes. (My own pets are chord tone arpeggios and chromatics.)

[destinytot]

At some point I've understood that the interesting challenge for me is to construct my own unique system that allows me to express the sounds I want to make.

Absolutely.

[Vladan]

Nature ofguitar is such that most things are played with 3 fingers, there's no need to force use of that 4th one, but it's absolutelly ridiculous not to use it when and where it's natural and logical to use it, which is what typical and average 3 finger guys do - not use it at all.
I think it's not really usefull mentioning genious players in technique issues like this one, because most of us could not do it with any number of fingers.

Monk's experience is cool, but I bet he uses all available fingers as needed.

[Jehu]

Honestly, I'd rather be a failure at my own thing than yet another also ran that successfully copied someone else's idiosyncratic system.

Really? As a complete nobody playing for the enjoyment of myself and those around me, I would rather be able to play convincingly in the style of one of my favourites than to not be a very good guitarist.

[princeplanet]

Really? As a complete nobody playing for the enjoyment of myself and those around me, I would rather be able to play convincingly in the style of one of my favourites than to not be a very good guitarist.

Oh certainly, jazz guitarists are all so different in their aspirations, some wanna just sound competent and get gigs, some wanna break new ground in new styles. Me, I just wanna break new ground in old styles (Hard Bop / Post Bop), those genres, in my mind, were not fully explored before they were discarded.

It's art vs craft, the artist strives to please himself, the craft guy likes to see his stuff to be useful to others. It ain't "lofty" to suggest Jazz guitar is an art, and an extremely disciplined one at that!

[monk]

Nature ofguitar is such that most things are played with 3 fingers, there's no need to force use of that 4th one, but it's absolutelly ridiculous not to use it when and where it's natural and logical to use it, which is what typical and average 3 finger guys do - not use it at all.
I think it's not really usefull mentioning genious players in technique issues like this one, because most of us could not do it with any number of fingers.

Monk's experience is cool, but I bet he uses all available fingers as needed.

You speak of "typical and average three finger guys" who never use the pinky at all. Who are they? Rock players? Blues players? The discussion here is jazz guitar playing and players who have demonstrated that they used three fingers predominately to play lines. Charlie Christian, George Barnes, Jimmy Raney, Pat Martino, Herb Ellis, Oscar Moore, Irving Ashby, Wes Montgomery, George Benson, Jimmy Wyble, Howard Roberts. No one ever said that they used three fingers exclusively.

If you don't think we should discuss genius players in technical issues like this, who should we discuss? Average players? Below average players? Poor players?

I've studied Christian and Barnes-type swing jazz fingerings, Django-style fingerings and Wes-style fingerings because they did something with those fingerings that I wasn't able to do with conventional scalar fingerings. They got the sound and the feel and the phrasing.

If the way that someone plays is working, there's no reason to change unless it stops working. If it never worked to begin with, then they should look for a solution. For me, those solutions were found in the playing of Christian, Barnes, Reinhardt and Montgomery.

[destinytot]

It's art vs craft, the artist strives to please himself, the craft guy likes to see his stuff to be useful to others. It ain't "lofty" to suggest Jazz guitar is an art, and an extremely disciplined one at that!

Hear, hear!