Percussive Techniques

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Sometimes don’t you just feel like slapping something?

[tbeltrans]

Well, I finally found your post that you referred to in the "Daily Practice" thread. I had to click on your name and look through your activity to find it.

Anyway, I normally don't care for the "slapping and tapping" stuff because it seems that anything musical gets lost in it all. However, you are doing it tastefully such that it becomes yet another texture added to your playing, making the overall effect that much more interesting to listen to.

If I lived near you, I would likely be bugging you for lessons because you have such a unique approach to your music that, for some reason, really piques my interest. I doubt there is really a solid logical reason for why a particular artist appeals to us since it is rarely about logic, so I just leave it at "for some reason".

Tony

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Well, I finally found your post that you referred to in the "Daily Practice" thread. I had to click on your name and look through your activity to find it.

Anyway, I normally don't care for the "slapping and tapping" stuff because it seems that anything musical gets lost in it all. However, you are doing it tastefully such that it becomes yet another texture added to your playing, making the overall effect that much more interesting to listen to.

If I lived near you, I would likely be bugging you for lessons because you have such a unique approach to your music that, for some reason, really piques my interest. I doubt there is really a solid logical reason for why a particular artist appeals to us since it is rarely about logic, so I just leave it at "for some reason".

Tony

Thanks for seeking this out, and I really appreciate your feedback. If you did live closer (where is that by the way) I would at best offer some consulting rather than lessons. The difference is that I do t really teach anything, and never call myself a teacher. But I’m always willing to help fellow travelers along the journey. That said, I have to be selective with the time commitment too and I refuse to be paid for any of it.

[tbeltrans]

Thanks for seeking this out, and I really appreciate your feedback. If you did live closer (where is that by the way) I would at best offer some consulting rather than lessons. The difference is that I do t really teach anything, and never call myself a teacher. But I’m always willing to help fellow travelers along the journey. That said, I have to be selective with the time commitment too and I refuse to be paid for any of it.

I live in the Twin Cities area in Minnesota. Since you don't teach, but are willing to consult a bit, maybe I can just ask you a general question. What have you studied along your musical journey that helped you in the style you have chosen to play? What I mean is that, for example, the Mickey Baker book really helped me when I was a sideman to hold my own playing very typical rhythm (comping) stuff that was needed for the job, but it would be a leap to get from there to what you are doing. Any hints or ideas to point the way would be helpful.

One thing I could do is download MP3s of some of your videos on youtube and figure them out by ear as I have done with other material I wanted to learn. But since you are here, I figure any thoughts, however brief, that you might have even while doing this, would really help.

Thanks,

Tony

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I live in the Twin Cities area in Minnesota. Since you don't teach, but are willing to consult a bit, maybe I can just ask you a general question. What have you studied along your musical journey that helped you in the style you have chosen to play? What I mean is that, for example, the Mickey Baker book really helped me when I was a sideman to hold my own playing very typical rhythm (comping) stuff that was needed for the job, but it would be a leap to get from there to what you are doing. Any hints or ideas to point the way would be helpful.

One thing I could do is download MP3s of some of your videos on youtube and figure them out by ear as I have done with other material I wanted to learn. But since you are here, I figure any thoughts, however brief, that you might have even while doing this, would really help.

Thanks,

Tony

Tony, my journey results from a number of choices along the 50 years I’ve been playing that are not for everyone and mostly go against all of the conventional wisdom. None of my learning came from books and I’ve never transcribed anything. I also never use a metronome. I’m a mediocre reader at best and learn material mostly by ear (tunes and such). The biggest teacher has been playing gigs. Great gigs to shit gigs, I wasn’t a good 40 years of never saying no to anything. I also would always be up for private house jams and hosted many of my own. It’s all in the ears. Underlying all of this was always a burning desire to be individualist about style, so avoiding copying anyone is my mantra.

[tbeltrans]

Tony, my journey results from a number of choices along the 50 years I’ve been playing that are not for everyone and mostly go against all of the conventional wisdom. None of my learning came from books and I’ve never transcribed anything. I also never use a metronome. I’m a mediocre reader at best and learn material mostly by ear (tunes and such). The biggest teacher has been playing gigs. Great gigs to shit gigs, I wasn’t a good 40 years of never saying no to anything. I also would always be up for private house jams and hosted many of my own. It’s all in the ears. Underlying all of this was always a burning desire to be individualist about style, so avoiding copying anyone is my mantra.

Mark, Thanks for the detailed reply. Robert Conti says the same thing you are basically saying - you learn to play by playing music. He goes on to say that he recommends you learn the theory about what you are playing after you learn to play it because it is then easier to understand, since you are seeing on the fretboard and hearing what the theory is describing.

I haven't played out in quite some time and the only thing I tried locally was song circles. I wasn't a good fit because I don't sing, and it would have been unfair to have the momentum of the group completely interrupted to listen to me play something as a solo instrumental. Constantly strumming along on the same three chords gets old quickly too. Much of my learning, other than the Mickey Baker book, was by ear. In more recent years, I have chosen books and various video lessons to expand my horizons. I suppose that is a substitute for being in a band.

Also, I must admit that the "fire" for music seems to have dimmed the farther I have gotten from my professional road experience. I have settled into a comfortable daily routine of learning from videos and books and putting together chord melody "arrangements" on the fly from fakebooks using various ideas I learn. I am quite content with this and have never regretted choosing a career in engineering over continuing as a professional musician. When I did it, it was two years of constant touring, playing 6 nights a week and traveling on the 7th day to the next gig. I was fully immersed full time, rather than the occasional weekend gig. I am grateful to have had a choice, since I meet so many guitar players my age who only wish they had the opportunity I did to do it for a while.

Not too long ago, I purchased a 1995 Gibson Citation archtop. It was quite expensive, but it is such a joy to play, and having an instrument such as that really adds to my contentment in just playing music every day.

Tony

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Tony, I did leave out the part where I earned a music degree in jazz performance at Rutgers in the 70’s where we had an amazing faculty of real deal NYC jazz musicians. That set my course that would take decades to evolve but it was a very loose program at that time. Big on stories and demonstrations and short on pedagogy.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Tony, I did leave out the part where I earned a music degree in jazz performance at Rutgers in the 70’s where we had an amazing faculty of real deal NYC jazz musicians. That set my course that would take decades to evolve but it was a very loose program at that time. Big on stories and demonstrations and short on pedagogy.

I feel a light glimpse of envy after a quick look at the biography on your website:

“After encountering Ted Dunbar Kleinhaut realized that music was going to be more than a hobby, so he changed his major to music. He graduated from Rutgers in 1979, after a full immersion in the Jazz program at Rutgers whose faculty consisted of: Ted Dunbar, Kenny Barron, Frank Foster, Paul Jeffrey and Larry Riddley, plus master classes conducted by: Barry Harris, Dexter Gordon, Jimmy Ponder, Buster Williams, Ron Carter, Billy Cobham, Jimmy Heath and others.”

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I feel a light glimpse of envy after a quick look at the biography on your website:

“After encountering Ted Dunbar Kleinhaut realized that music was going to be more than a hobby, so he changed his major to music. He graduated from Rutgers in 1979, after a full immersion in the Jazz program at Rutgers whose faculty consisted of: Ted Dunbar, Kenny Barron, Frank Foster, Paul Jeffrey and Larry Riddley, plus master classes conducted by: Barry Harris, Dexter Gordon, Jimmy Ponder, Buster Williams, Ron Carter, Billy Cobham, Jimmy Heath and others.”

Though it turned out Kleinhaut didn’t enjoy starving, and has since made his income with a steady non-music day gig. (Addendum)

[tbeltrans]

Tony, I did leave out the part where I earned a music degree in jazz performance at Rutgers in the 70’s where we had an amazing faculty of real deal NYC jazz musicians. That set my course that would take decades to evolve but it was a very loose program at that time. Big on stories and demonstrations and short on pedagogy.

Oh, OK.

After seeing the followup post showing a portion of your biography with all those jazz luminaries, I can certainly understand that at least being in that environment would have been an envious experience.

Of course I don't mean that as an excuse for me not playing as well as you do. What I will say is that I believe much more in level of desire than level of talent as a gatekeeper to excelling. I doubt that my level of desire to excel on guitar was ever as strong as it would be for somebody who really did excel.

I have only briefly met a few of the players I admire, and that was just little more than a "hello" during a break at their gig that I came to see them play. Joe Pass was a little more open to some conversation though.

On the road, many well known musicians traveled in those big buses and often stayed outside hotels that musicians typically stayed at. Typical of this type were Ted Nugent, Willie Nelson, and others. So I got to meet many of them, which was fun, but then I wasn't into anything involving jazz back then. Also, we were all touring musicians of one kind or another, so it wasn't the fan to star type of thing, but instead just hanging out.

Tony

[RJVB]

Anyway, I normally don't care for the "slapping and tapping" stuff because it seems that anything musical gets lost in it all. However, you are doing it tastefully such that it becomes yet another texture added to your playing, making the overall effect that much more interesting to listen to.

Couldn't agree more! (On a not-really-related note, I just discovered how to do pinch harmonics on my nylon stringers )

Mark, I can't remember if I asked you before, but do you use a strap or a support to keep the guitar in that position? It seems to suit you, but it does remind me a bit of the feeling a get during my lessons when I have to sit down on a kid's chair and my guitar isn't in the expected place anymore

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Couldn't agree more! (On a not-really-related note, I just discovered how to do pinch harmonics on my nylon stringers

Mark, I can't remember if I asked you before, but do you use a strap or a support to keep the guitar in that position? It seems to suit you, but it does remind me a bit of the feeling a get during my lessons when I have to sit down on a kid's chair and my guitar isn't in the expected place anymore

I use a strap to get the guitar to sit this way, which mostly resembles a classical posture. An instrument without a strap feels impossible to play for me

[RJVB]

That's what I figured (most guitar supports would be visible )

I never managed to adapt to playing with a strap myself. They either put too much weight on my shoulder leading to stiffness, or else they start slipping off. There's something liberating too to not being strapped to the instrument...

[tbeltrans]

I use a strap to get the guitar to sit this way, which mostly resembles a classical posture. An instrument without a strap feels impossible to play for me

I also use a strap and feel the same way about not using one. To me, there is a real advantage in using a strap because the guitar is always in the same position whether sitting or standing. Also for me, it makes playing more possible with a larger instrument because I can hold it off to the side. I broke one of the two bones in my right wrist years ago and as a result, have lost half the rotation ability of that hand. Being able to adjust for that with a strap really helps me to be able to continue playing.

Tony

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Ya know guys, talking about leather straps in a discussion thread about slapping could give people the wrong idea about this group. Just sayin

[tbeltrans]

Ya know guys, talking about leather straps in a discussion thread about slapping could give people the wrong idea about this group. Just sayin

...and here I was starting to think that jazz guitar was the domain of sadists.

By the way, talking about straps, the ones I now use are made by the Lakota Indian tribe in South Dakota. These are made from Bison hide and are extremely flexible. I can roll one up and stick in my guitar case up by the headstock with no problem. Yet, these are strong and probably will never wear out.

I bought mine from Willie's American Guitars. Willie told me that the Rolling Stones like these and often buy up what he can get in stock. I have known Willie for a while, since I don't live too far from the shop, and I know he does business with a number of famous rock and pop musicians. Recently, he bought and sold one of Joe Walsh's Les Pauls. I was fortunate that he had just one in stock one day, so I grabbed it. They are expensive at $75, but worth it to me because I probably won't need to buy another and I can stop looking for straps. These are wide so they don't cut into my should, very comfortable.

Tony

[ccroft]

...Willie told me that the Rolling Stones like these and often buy up what he can get in stock. I have known Willie for a while, since I don't live too far from the shop, and I know he does business with a number of famous rock and pop musicians. Recently, he bought and sold one of Joe Walsh's Les Pauls...

These must be awesome straps if it allows those old guys to support a solid body for a night. I'm gonna have to check 'em out.

I'm always strapped in for the same previously mentioned reasons. Sitting or standing baby's always where I want her.

[tbeltrans]

These must be awesome straps if it allows those old guys to support a solid body for a night. I'm gonna have to check 'em out.

I'm always strapped in for the same previously mentioned reasons. Sitting or standing baby's always where I want her.

Having just checked their site, I don't see them listed. I don't know that they list guitar straps and strings an such at all. You will probably need to call them for availability. From what I understand, he doesn't get a lot of them, so you have to catch them when you can.

Anyway, here is the site: Willies American Guitars - Willie's Guitars

You might want to look around on the site once you are there. He deals in vintage guitars and amps as well as the typical new and used stuff.

Here is an example page: Gibson Archives - Willie's Guitars

Notice Joe Walsh's 1959 Les Paul seems to be back up again.

Tony

[ccroft]

Thanks for the link Tony. I can always use another site to waste time browsing used instruments :-)

I might order a couple of these, one for a new guitar that might be arriving in a month or 2. I feel it demands a tan strap of the utmost quality. Looks like you can use PayPal or call Lakota Leathers direct. I'll give it a shot soon and let you know how it goes.

[alltunes]

The Lakota straps look nice. Here’s an alternative. Very soft leather and high quality.

Durango-Suave Leather Guitar Strap, "A Best Seller!" << El Dorado Leather Guitar Straps & Accessories

[Mark Kleinhaut]

How did my post turn into a discussion about straps? Just wondering, any talk is good talk

[ccroft]

Hey Mark. You know how we roll. Somebody asks a question about how you support your instrument, you mention a piece of gear, and we're off to the races! It's a lot easier to talk about gear than artistry.

I'll give it a shot though. I like what you're doing here. It feels like an organic part of the piece. A lot of times when a guy starts doing this it gets separated from the rest: "now watch while I do this cool thing" kind of thing. You got flow.

Now then... what pick do you use? :-)

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Hey Mark. You know how we roll. Somebody asks a question about how you support your instrument, you mention a piece of gear, and we're off to the races! It's a lot easier to talk about gear than artistry.

I'll give it a shot though. I like what you're doing here. It feels like an organic part of the piece. A lot of times when a guy starts doing this it gets separated from the rest: "now watch while I do this cool thing" kind of thing. You got flow.

Now then... what pick do you use? :-)

Fair explanation. Now, under the sub forum heading of “The Songs”, I posted a take of Have You Met Miss Jones which I think is way more interest that this video, but not one comment. I’d love to understand how that happens in these discussion group dynamics.