-
If it ain’t broke don’t fix it…
otoh it’s good to have something to suggest if a student asks
sound biomechanics, relaxation and flexibility are universals.
-
07-17-2022 02:01 PM
-
I fail to see what about his playing is "inefficient"?
-
Resurrecting this thread to announce my adoption of a different picking mechanic - finger motion, and a different technique - economy picking. Inspired by people such as Pasquale Grasso and Emily Remler in this decision (also John Scofield, Allan Holdsworth, Ben Eunson and the forum's Peter Amos use finger motion) but more importantly the fact that if I pick from the wrist I appear unable to get away from string hopping (i.e. an inefficient motion) at a slower tempo, and it has been irking me for some time. I'm not new to economy picking but applying it with finger motion will take some time to say the least. It'll probably make me step back a bit to rebuild my technique and I'll improvise less, which is probably a good thing at this stage. But it has been said that economy picking (of the two-way variety) is quite intuitive for improvising, and I can see how that might be the case.
-
Nice to learn about your evolution since last time. There is no single picking technique and you're right to go with the one(s) that feel more natural to you. Though I would mention Troy has posted a couple more clips that are I think are brilliant.
Originally Posted by James W
BTW I'm sad to see some more false info posted about Troy's material since last time. I find it rather strange. There's plenty iffy guitar material and teachers to be critical about on and off line. I maintain his work represents a major contribution to guitar pedagogy. If people don't understand it, they should abstain from commenting on it.
-
This marks the first time anyone has intentionally copied the way I pick. Originally Posted by James W
A strange feeling of dread gathers in the pit of my stomach.
-
Thanks. I wouldn't describe finger motion as necessarily more natural to me, but I do think that wrist motion (with a component of elbow along with it) has been a bit of a cause of some frustration for years really. My damn right hand has been a weakness throughout my guitar playing life whether that was with a pick (jazz) or fingerstyle (classical). But I am already feeling pleased with my decision, having just practised the past hour; I am not sure why I didn't switch to an economy picking approach sooner (for everything rather than just arpeggios) tbh, but for some reason its logic only very recently sunk in. And using a finger motion just seems like a sensible option rather than the recalcitrant wrist... even if for not very fast stuff. I mean, even if I never have Pasquale Grasso's chops, at least I won't be string hopping playing eighth notes at 200BPM. Originally Posted by m_d
I'm up-to-date with Troy's stuff, I think. I purchased his pickslanting primer - but having watched his tutorials on reverse-dart-thrower motion etc. it just sort of confirmed that wrist motion is not my friend, despite what he says. Maybe it's just a mental block on my behalf, I don't know. I agree his approach, and the info on his website (which is where he points out the guitarists using finger motion which I mention above) is a major contribution to guitar pedagogy.
-
Haha... not just you... but you do have great articulation. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
-
Also... If anyone has ever practised hybrid picking, that seems to result in doing a finger motion with the pick... so, y'know...
-
Whew thank god. Originally Posted by James W
This might be the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me Originally Posted by James W
-
Originally Posted by James W
-
Actually, I don't think Giant Steps is an example of Coltrane's Sheets of Sound style... but anyway... Originally Posted by pauln
-
Should be a law against it.
-
?? Originally Posted by Litterick
-
Singing Giant Steps. Originally Posted by James W
-
Well, I for one liked it... Originally Posted by Litterick
-
I got mixed up and was thinking "curtains and drapes of sound"...
-
yes I do a lot of that at the moment and yes it does Originally Posted by James W
-
Yeah, like trying to copy Django's left hand technique by burning off 2 of your fingers hehe Originally Posted by timmer
-
OK Originally Posted by princeplanet
In the early 2000s, at the Roosevelt Island Racquet Club, there was a fantastic tennis coach, who helped me raise my tennis level through the roof, by doing exactly what Troy does, i.e., analyzing and understanding the technique of the greats on video, and helping the player incorporate it in their playing - Alberto Costa, Federer... Why does it work ? Because of those players' optimal technical efficiency, which can be learned, and is not a matter of superhuman physical strength and ability. Oddities like McEnroe's serve motion may be of interest but are not routinely taught anywhere. In similar fashion, Troy advises that Olli Soikelli's incredible alternate picking is not the easiest to emulate. Approaches similar to Troy's have been used in tennis, golf, ski, sailing, etc. instruction for decades now. Guys, technique is a fundamental in jazz music. No two ways about it. Thinking in Jazz has like fifty quotes on the subject, I could post a few when I have time.
-
Well the real Django-heads do like to tape their third and fourth fingers together as an exercise at least. Helps them understand the fingerings. Originally Posted by princeplanet
-
Yay! A fellow Berliner fan. Everybody should read that book. OTOH there'd be less 'debates' on JGO, and we'd have nothing to argue about. Originally Posted by m_d
OK
In the early 2000s, at the Roosevelt Island Racquet Club, there was a fantastic tennis coach, who helped me raise my tennis level through the roof, by doing exactly what Troy does, i.e., analyzing and understanding the technique of the greats on video, and helping the player incorporate it in their playing - Alberto Costa, Federer... Why does it work ? Because of those players' optimal technical efficiency, which can be learned, and is not a matter of superhuman physical strength and ability. Oddities like McEnroe's serve motion may be of interest but are not routinely taught anywhere. In similar fashion, Troy advises that Olli Soikelli's incredible alternate picking is not the easiest to emulate. Approaches similar to Troy's have been used in tennis, golf, ski, sailing, etc. instruction for decades now. Guys, technique is a fundamental in jazz music. No two ways about it. Thinking in Jazz has like fifty quotes on the subject, I could post a few when I have time.
My mate Marcus (who played on my album) played with Olli last year (London Gypsy Jazz Festival) and said it was really fun, but he also really rated his rhythm guitarist, and Olli's rhythm playing. He also said every tune was played at ludicrous speed haha.
I think Troy and I are basically in agreement in that I think there are many ways up the mountain, but some are definitely easier to teach than others. As I was able learn rest stroke picking quickly from videos, and I see many shredding players who have learned to pick that way in London, that makes me think it's a teachable technique. OTOH I think a lot students struggle doing things that feel 'strange' at first consistently enough to change their technique. This is true of many things, actually.
I teach children to use rest strokes. It's mechanically a bit simpler and gives them a sense of solidity and security in the right hand. It also makes a good sound.
I go between them using their thumb Wes-style and fingers more classically. Both have their own issues further down the line, but thumb rest stroke technique works well as a precursor to pick playing, it teaches them to get good at downstrokes. I just don't want to spend 50% of the lesson fishing picks out of the sound hole. Moving over to the pick is not normally a huge problem.
(Bear in mind with rest stroke picking, there's no reason why you can't teach basic alternate/rhythm picking at moderate speeds. The issues of string crossing only really kick in when things are very fast.)
-
A while ago, I mentioned on this forum that I was about to read Thinking in Jazz. Somebody, I forget whom, told me to learn some tunes instead.
I am glad to see the book recommended.
-
Yeah I start with thumb rest strokes too. Started doing it because folks have a tendency to want to get behind the string and pluck outward when they start and it makes me cringe.
-
hey James... Have you ever put time in on across strings Spider drills.
You use same fingering patterns but play them on 4 strings up and down
example
1234 usually implies fingers on one string. So instead start with 1 2 3 4 on 6th , 5th, 4th and 3rd strings
( if you started in 3rd position... G on 6th string. Db on 5th string, G on 4th string and G on 3rd string)
-then start on 5th, 4th, 3rd and 2nd strings
Didn't say... but usually for alt. picking, but I'm sure it will show where your difficulties are with any picking style.
-then on 4th, 3rd, 2nd and 1st strings.... yea then move up a fret and same thing
So you also do..
1234 starting on 1st string and play opposite direction from high string to lower.
Then the other patterns... 1 3 4 2, 1 4 2 3 etc...
Anyway it's pure picking, no thinking involves. Never seen it not have results. And generally 5 to 10 min. and your fried. Also great warm up drill to start practice or even gigs. gets the rust out quick.
I didn't say, but is usually for alt. picking but will work for any style and will quickly reveal the problem areas
-
When I played classical guitar I would do what I think were also called spider drills, but IIRC they were somewhat different and were mainly something to train the left hand (they're in the book Pumping Nylon). Originally Posted by Reg
Anyway, these look good for the left hand and right hand. Since I've just switched to economy picking as my picking MO, that's what I'll use. Thanks.
Speaking of warm up drills, recently I've been re-watching Adam Rogers' My Music Masterclass videos, and he's got me learning the same Bach piece he plays as part of his technical routine - so I put all the left-hand finger numbers and right-hand pick directions into this Bach piece (a movement from the first Partita for solo violin) yesterday and have been working on memorising it. Been notating all the pick directions in my bebop heads too. Happy days.
Reply With Quote
A big mistake?
Today, 10:49 AM in Other Styles / Instruments