The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    According to his Wikipedia page "He taught himself how to play guitar, which he started when he was twenty-two years old."*
    Now following that sentence there is statement about him learning chord melodies on a mandolin. So may be he started playing mandolin at a younger age. Not sure. If so, that means the title of the thread isn't true.

    I also got my first guitar in the first half of my twenties. Coincidentally, I also started on a mandolin at the age of 7. But I didn't play very seriously. Similarities end there
    My goals have never been to become a virtuoso player, but I find the subject interesting. When I was taking (elective) courses from a university jazz performance program when I was doing my undergrad there many years ago, the guitar instructor told me that the best guitar player in the program was a graduate student who started in his thirties.
    Do you know any particularly skilled player who is a late starter on any instrument? When I say particularly skilled I mean above average pro level.

    *Tal Farlow - Wikipedia

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Dutch Bopper (who posts here regularly) started as an adult, I beleive...at least started on jazz as an adult. That dude can play.

    I think people who start as an adult and acheive ridiculously high levels are pretty rare though. It takes practice, so I really suppose it's dependent on how driven you are and where you're at in your life. 25, single, work from home? Hey, who knows? 28, married, with a 2 year old and a baby on the way? Well...

    What's not as rare though, in jazz, is continuing to get better as you get older. Sure, you might lose your chops a little bit (but maybe not as much as you might think), but your ideas can get stronger and stronger. Jazz is by no means just a youngin's game, which I find very reassuring.

    The first 20 years have definitely been the hardest. By the time I'm 60, who knows?


  4. #3

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    I started to seriously learn jazz at 55, I have had a love affair with the instrument since I was 8 and first picked one up , a Stella with a cowboy painted on the top. I messed around through my teens , played some in a country rock band in my 20's and started building guitars and mandolins in my thirty's, I loved music but knew at that time , or thought that I would never be a player.I did learn to read-barely- for mandolin and played some bluegrass,In my early 50's a man moved to my town who was an all around guitar player and music school grad . he offered to teach me if I wanted to ., and that was the beginning. he was the perfect teacher for me , we started with tunes learned the melody the chords and a simple chord melody. when we came to a place that needed more we added some scales arps etc but it was always tunes. it was so much fun I found some guys and started playing together. we stayed together for 10 years and I kept learning. when that ended I found some more people and did it again I am now 75 and still learning and having fun and also building guitars again LEARN TUNES

  5. #4

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    Tal Farlow proved that HE could become a virtuosos.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    Tal Farlow proved that HE could become a virtuosos.
    True Tal Farlow's achievements cannot be generalized. But it would refute a generalized claim that says one must start very early to become a virtuoso player which is a common belief.
    Of course starting early isn't an automatic admission to the world of players like Tal Farlow. It'd still be a rare occurrence.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Do you know any particularly skilled player who is a late starter on any instrument? When I say particularly skilled I mean above average pro level.
    Another way to think about this is, how many jazz musicians were very good at a relatively young age? Quite a few musicians were playing jazz at the highest levels in their early 20s, in many cases, these musicians also didn't start at an extremely young age. I was at the New School during a particularly interesting period, classmates were Robert Glasper, Mike Moreno, Mike Rodriguez, etc. All these folks played very, very well straight out of high school, and my perception is largely that they had gotten to that point in about 4-ish years (i.e. they weren't playing jazz as little kids or something).

    I switched to upright bass in my late 30s (6 years ago) and most people (including several well known jazz musicians I've been lucky to play with) think I've been playing my whole life. I don't have kids, and, other than day job, devote most of my waking hours to music. No one would ever call me a virtuoso on bass, but, I do certainly play at a professional level. I mention this not because I want recognition, but rather because I think it somewhat dispelled the myth to me that you have to start early on an instrument. I started extremely late on upright, but I have good technique, excellent intonation, and have leveled up my reading skills significantly, all things that I would have previously thought required starting young.

    I think it's common for musicians to want to look for examples of people like them who have excelled and achieved some success, I certainly did this a lot in my 20s whilst wishing I didn't need to have a day job. But in the end, anything is possible, and what matters most is that you're putting in the work that makes you feel good.

  8. #7
    Guitar players generally start very late by the standards of classical players. Steel string guitar is just not a suitable instrument for a small kid.
    Earliest usually is when one is a teenager. Even then it's not a serious formal study. Teen guitar players' education typically consists of learning cowboy chords, some rock riffs, rock ballad intros and half baked attempts at Slash solos.

    In the violin world if you're not formally studying very seriously by the age of 8-9, forget being a pro. May be an orchestral player but not a soloist.
    When a guitar player starts very early (like 5-6) and studies formally that's usually classical guitar, then they may have chops like Pasquale Grasso. Violin world counter part of that level of chops I bet is easily met by an average student at a good conservatory. But in the guitar world, that level amounts to being a guitar God. Because guitarists start late and often don't get into a disciplined pedagogy until much later. Which I'm very happy about
    Last edited by Tal_175; 12-11-2019 at 03:25 PM.

  9. #8
    On the other hand guitar is an easier instrument than violin probably. Also musical styles outside of the classical world isn't as unforgiving about nuances in tone, articulation and consistency. I know classical players who are horrified by the instrumental standards of even some of the jazz legends.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald
    ...All these folks played very, very well straight out of high school, and my perception is largely that they had gotten to that point in about 4-ish years (i.e. they weren't playing jazz as little kids or something).
    I think that age, high school into college, are when many of us are at our "spongiest." We're still young and have little responsibility, but we're old enough to understand stuff including abstract concepts.

    I often wonder what my ability would be if I hadn't squandered these years smoking pot and playing lousy rock music. Ah, hindsight...

  11. #10

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    Not as an adult entirely, but I often marvel at what Jimi Hendrix accomplished in 12 years--he first picked up a real guitar (not a broom or a 1-string ukulele) at 15, and he was dead at 27.

  12. #11
    I believe we were separated at birth, Mr. Beaumont.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    According to his Wikipedia page "He taught himself how to play guitar, which he started when he was twenty-two years old."*
    Now following that sentence there is statement about him learning chord melodies on a mandolin. So may be he started playing mandolin at a younger age. Not sure. If so, that means the title of the thread isn't true.

    I also got my first guitar in the first half of my twenties. Coincidentally, I also started on a mandolin at the age of 7. But I didn't play very seriously. Similarities end there
    My goals have never been to become a virtuoso player, but I find the subject interesting. When I was taking (elective) courses from a university jazz performance program when I was doing my undergrad there many years ago, the guitar instructor told me that the best guitar player in the program was a graduate student who started in his thirties.
    Do you know any particularly skilled player who is a late starter on any instrument? When I say particularly skilled I mean above average pro level.

    *Tal Farlow - Wikipedia
    Wikipedia is a terrible source for pre Beatles music. I bought the Guy-Littler Jones privately printed Tal bio, and he is meticulous in his research.
    Tal's father had a strong interest in electronics and music, and played the guitar, banjo, violin and ukulele, as well as the clarinet.
    His mother played the piano and organ, and his sister Charlotte also played both and had perfect pitch.
    Tal's father taught him the mandolin when Tal was only EIGHT years old, and he used the same tuning as the top four strings of the guitar-DGBE.
    Tal became quite adept on this instrument, and taught himself to play chord melodies of the popular songs of the time, by Gershwin, Kern and Porter. Tal became able to play in several different keys at different positions on the fingerboard.
    A few years later, he moved to the six string guitar, and used his LH thumb to play bass notes for the chords, while still using his mandolin fingerings to play the other voices in the chords.
    Tal listened to the radio a lot, and was influenced by guitarists like Eddie land Dick McDonough, and Carl Kress, when he was aged ten to fifteen.
    After he heard Charlie Christian at age 19, he started to become a pro.

    The same was true with Wes Montgomery. He started playing a four string ax, and switched to six strings when he was older. I don't have to go into his musical family...

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    ... Steel string guitar is just not a suitable instrument for a small kid ...
    And why is that, Sir; pray tell?

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Zina
    And why is that, Sir; pray tell?
    Physical strength required to get clean sounds from steel strings. Reach difficulties with small hands given the nut width and scale length. Difficulties with comfortably holding acoustic guitars with good posture given their sizes. Even 3/4 sized guitars can be a challenge for many small kids (3-6 year olds).
    That doesn't mean it can't be done. But practice time and patience required to learn an instrument is already a big challenge for highly kinestetic and short attention span beings. Guitar puts additional physical challenges compared to many other choices like violin or keyboard.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 12-11-2019 at 10:31 PM.

  16. #15

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    Next time around...


  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Physical strength required to get clean sounds from steel strings. Reach difficulties with small hands given the nut width and scale length. Difficulties with comfortably holding acoustic guitars with good posture given their sizes. Even 3/4 sized guitars can be a challenge for many small kids (3-6 year olds).
    That doesn't mean it can't be done. But practice time and patience required to learn an instrument is already a big challenge for highly kinestetic and short attention span beings. Guitar puts additional physical challenges compared to many other choices like violin or keyboard.
    I would gladly comment on these condescending, rather insulting clichés, but my short attention span sent me running (I'm highly "kinestetic", see?) to the pink sparkle nailpolish emporium instead.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Physical strength required to get clean sounds from steel strings. Reach difficulties with small hands given the nut width and scale length. Difficulties with comfortably holding acoustic guitars with good posture given their sizes. Even 3/4 sized guitars can be a challenge for many small kids (3-6 year olds).
    That doesn't mean it can't be done. But practice time and patience required to learn an instrument is already a big challenge for highly kinestetic and short attention span beings. Guitar puts additional physical challenges compared to many other choices like violin or keyboard.
    I have a few guitars, two lutes, two ukes, a bunch or early transverse flutes and recorders, and a chromatic harmonica.. and piano of course...

    I play all of it at different level of course... guitars and lutes are main instruments of course.

    My son of 6 years - I am very curious how it wil go with him... (I hve two daughters but he seems to be the most interested in music now at least) at the moment he can play a few tunes on solprano recorder... also he can play a bunch of chords on uke and play some songs...
    He get interested quickly but switches quickly too...
    I do not push him and allow to choose...
    but he definitely has very goood ear and very good hands, he grabs uke as if it was always in his hands. He immidiately makes correct hand position and has good tone when fingerpicks...
    I am sure he will play just do not know to how far he will go with it.

    He picks steel string guitar too.. though it hurts he comes over it quite quickly.... and likes the tone of it.

    It all depends on a kid... again I do not push my kids at all... let them try and choose...

    I myself had no-one playing in the family - and insisted on byuing me guitar when I was about 9 and later asked to bring piano from our relatives who did not use it..
    you never know how it works.