Question about rest stroke picking

[Stanford J17]

I've got a very young student (something between 6-8 years old). He wants to learn electric guitar. So we started out with a workbook especially aimed at children. This book emphasizes the usual alternate picking rule downstrokes on downbeats and upstrokes on upbeats.

He had a terrible downstroke. It was more like he was plucking the string instead of picking it and it sounded awful. We solved this problem by using rest strokes. It went quite well afterwards.

But now we've run into another problem:

How would you continue this line picking wise, keeping in mind that the pick is resting on the b-string and should pick it with an upstroke?
I know that I could simply use another downstroke, doing economy picking. But how would I continue. Reversing the order of down- and upstrokes? Or doing another downstroke to get back into the initial rule?
And I don't like children to break the rules, when they are not yet ingrained.

And an even worse problem:

Now the pick is resting on the e-string and should do an upstroke on the g-string.

Has anybody any helpful ideas?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Guitar books are just the worst.
Guitar pedagogy is decades behind everything else. Seriously. You shouldn't be doing 8ths super early on. If you learn sax or piano, it's later, and those instruments don't have this technical issue.

The rest stroke can be beautiful technique-building for a beginner, but it's not for this kind of alternate picking. It really requires a free stroke. But again, someone who can't otherwise PLAY shouldn't be adding the additional layer of complexity of technique which is required with alternate picking. Guitar method books are the worst.

If down strokes are working, I'd stay with that longer honestly.

[Jonah]

He is too small... I work with my son on flutes and guitars (he is six now) and I invent all the excercises myself - mostly trying to make it fun for him.. no real force I put into it (but he is quick)...

In your sample - swithcnig strings could make a problem anyway for a biginner kid - even with free strokes.. so I would try to keep all on the same string first

Then I would change values of note

make it another rythmic figure:

down (8th) - up (8th) -down (4th)....
down (8th) - up (8th) -down (4th)....

movements count
1 (down) 2 (up) 3 (down) 4 (up no stroke)

so basically what he does then is just moving his wrist upwards instead of up stroke - it is important skill to learn too

When he becomes stable with down rest stroke - make it free stroke ... and then you could practice regular alternate...

[Stanford J17]

Usually I don't use books. With students that young, I do easy children- and folksongs.

However, even with those songs, we would have encountered this problems sooner or later.

So how would you solve this technical problem?

[ronjazz]

Usually I don't use books. With students that young, I do easy children- and folksongs.

However, even with those songs, we would have encountered this problems sooner or later.

So how would you solve this technical problem?

Well, the answer is above: stay on one string and/or use only down-strokes. Staying on one string could have real advantages if you allow the student to travel up to higher positions, and thus lose the fear of heights that befalls most beginners who spend two years in the first position. So, the obvious solution is two-fold: when using multiple strings, stick with downstrokes and rest-strokes for a while. If 1/8th notes and alternation are important to you, find simple melodies that can be played on individual strings. Happy Birthday, Twinkle Twinkle, Frere Jaques, etc. Each could be played on any string, in a different key, solving several problems simultaneously, from reading in different keys to shifting positions to learning the entire fingerboard from the beginning stages. As is pointed out above, guitar pedagogy is horribly backwards, most authors of guitar instruction books are looking to sell as many copies as possible, thus Books 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. etc. The most effective and efficient method I've experienced is Bill Leavitt's Modern Method For guitar, Berklee publications, but that is a bit too fast-moving for young beginners.

[christianm77]

Always start the new string with a downstroke.

Pretty old school.

Tbh for beginners I just do all down for a bit. Up strokes can come in later. It’s how I did it and it never held me back technically. The upstroke is just a utilisation of the recovery movement for consecutive downstrokes.

[christianm77]

The thing about rest stroke picking is the angle the pick ends up actually makes string skips like the second example a lot easier than you’d think. You might be overthinking it.

[mr. beaumont]

Heck, I don't even use a pick with young beginners. Get that thumb working.

[christianm77]

Heck, I don't even use a pick with young beginners. Get that thumb working.

Yeah, me too actually.

Otherwise it goes down the hole.

[pcsanwald]

Guitar books are just the worst.
Guitar pedagogy is decades behind everything else. Seriously. You shouldn't be doing 8ths super early on. If you learn sax or piano, it's later, and those instruments don't have this technical issue.

After studying classical bass a lot recently, I wholeheartedly concur. a fundamental tenet of string playing is that you do small preparations for everything: catch the string with your bow prior to drawing the bow, for the left hand, making sure next finger is in place (often while you are still playing first note). In my classical lessons, this is emphasized, as are basic things like retakes and minimizing motion on string crossing, etc.

In all my years of playing guitar, there's only one book I've seen that addresses things this way: "pumping nylon", by scott tennant. incidentally I got this book because Paul Bollenback recommended it to me.

[sgcim]

After studying classical bass a lot recently, I wholeheartedly concur. a fundamental tenet of string playing is that you do small preparations for everything: catch the string with your bow prior to drawing the bow, for the left hand, making sure next finger is in place (often while you are still playing first note). In my classical lessons, this is emphasized, as are basic things like retakes and minimizing motion on string crossing, etc.

In all my years of playing guitar, there's only one book I've seen that addresses things this way: "pumping nylon", by scott tennant. incidentally I got this book because Paul Bollenback recommended it to me.

I've used some of the slurring exercises from Pumping Nylon every day for over ten years. Paul really knows the guitar.