Patterns for Jazz study group - March 2019

[Iain Carleton]

Hi everyone, I’ve just been “lurking” around here reading your posts and watching the videos. I think it’s a great idea. I’d like to join in at some point but should probably disclose that I’m a little over two years into the book and am currently re-examining pattern 85 in the Dorian. My process so far has been to move on as soon as I can play to the lower guide tempo, and find that often I use two or three fingerings moving up or down the neck to get me there. I have found that this pays off in unexpected ways and that I am now more likely to be able to “complete a level” in position although might choose playing along the neck in some situations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FwLineberry]

I think it would be cool if we posted early versions of some of this stuff, a couple of weeks out or so. It could be questions, thoughts etc. Or just brief playing examples. It would give us more of a reference point for commenting on each other's playing.. something from which to measure progress etc.

[snip]


You definitely don't have to post anything as long-winded as some of my comments...

Right now, I'm lucky to get something posted by deadline. I'm hoping to get my video procedure streamlined, but atm my recording environment is so noisy that I have to record audio separately direct into a DAW and spend time syncing everything up in a video editing program. I also have pet issues, so I can't just leave everything set up to do what I need to do and have to start from scratch every time. My wife and I are hoping to convert a downstairs room into a dedicated music room, but that is a major project for some time in the future.


You seem to have this first material under your hands pretty well even in your rough takes. Is that from having gone through this book already or just from general familiarity?

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[matt.guitarteacher]

Right now, I'm lucky to get something posted by deadline. I'm hoping to get my video procedure streamlined, but atm my recording environment is so noisy that I have to record audio separately direct into a DAW and spend time syncing everything up in a video editing program. I also have pet issues, so I can't just leave everything set up to do what I need to do and have to start from scratch every time. My wife and I are hoping to convert a downstairs room into a dedicated music room, but that is a major project for some time in the future.

Yeah. The ones I recorded this morning were on my phone and pretty rough audio I guess. I haven't recorded anything direct in forever. I do have a zoom Q2n which works pretty well and is better quality. For that for quick and easy, it's hard to beat these phones nowadays. I think Jeff uses a phone almost exclusively, and he always sounds great.

You seem to have this first material under your hands pretty well even in your rough takes. Is that from having gone through this book already or just from general familiarity?

I looked at it for a few days a couple of years ago. I quit in frustration. Basically, it's one of the things that led me to really tighten up on basic technical aspects of my playing and fretboard knowledge. I was so irritated that it seemed to take so much effort and thought to just cover basic on this instrument. Very different from my experience with sax and piano. I did a lot of work with scales and especially arpeggios.

Anyway, I started back looking at it a couple of days before my first post in original thread proposal. It made a lot more sense too me this time. That said, I play through this material a lot of different ways at home. I play through the cycles using single patterns some to work on technical issues, and I really try to be aware of actual position and not let my fingers just go on auto pilot. I've always cycled things in fourths, but the whole-step and minor 3rd patterns are new for me. So, that's been a good thing for me to work on.

If you pick a single pattern to work through, you can read through a lot of material more quickly. I'm doing some more grunt work on later stuff and using this earlier material to work on the position thing and for adding new patterns and positions etc. I was pretty familiar with types 1, 2, 3 and 4. I also recently did a lot of work on type 1C fingerings on all scale degree chords etc. So 1, 2 and 1C are very familiar, in terms of fretboard knowledge of where those pitches are. 3 and 4 aren't quite as solid in that regard, but my fingers know them really well. The other 2 fingerings need a good bit more work on the fretboard/pitch awareness relative to those shapes. So, yeah, I'm not as much having to learn 7 fingerings/pitch associations/position associations for any given position. It's mostly the last category and just filling in gaps, if that makes sense.

[FwLineberry]

Yeah. The ones I recorded this morning were on my phone and pretty rough audio I guess. I haven't recorded anything direct in forever. I do have a zoom Q2n which works pretty well and is better quality. For that for quick and easy, it's hard to beat these phones nowadays. I think Jeff uses a phone almost exclusively, and he always sounds great.


I looked at it for a few days a couple of years ago. I quit in frustration. Basically, it's one of the things that led me to really tighten up on basic technical aspects of my playing and fretboard knowledge. I was so irritated that it seemed to take so much effort and thought to just cover basic on this instrument. Very different from my experience with sax and piano. I did a lot of work with scales and especially arpeggios.

Anyway, I started back looking at it a couple of days before my first post in original thread proposal. It made a lot more sense too me this time. That said, I play through this material a lot of different ways at home. I play through the cycles using single patterns some to work on technical issues, and I really try to be aware of actual position and not let my fingers just go on auto pilot. I've always cycled things in fourths, but he whole-step and minor 3rd patterns are new for me.

If you pick a single pattern to work through, you can read through a lot of material more quickly.

You mention sax. I originally got this book to work through on clarinet but I haven't gotten to the point on that instrument for any of this to do much good. I put the book away and forgot about it. It never even occurred to me to go through the stuff on guitar until you posted the proposal thread. It's perfectly in line with what I laid out for myself to be working on for the next period of time - scales and arpeggios in positions going through cycles and common chord progressions. Now that I'm going through it on guitar, I have a better idea of how to approach it on clarinet as well.

Back to practicing.

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[matt.guitarteacher]

Hi everyone, I’ve just been “lurking” around here reading your posts and watching the videos. I think it’s a great idea. I’d like to join in at some point but should probably disclose that I’m a little over two years into the book and am currently re-examining pattern 85 in the Dorian. My process so far has been to move on as soon as I can play to the lower guide tempo, and find that often I use two or three fingerings moving up or down the neck to get me there. I have found that this pays off in unexpected ways and that I am now more likely to be able to “complete a level” in position although might choose playing along the neck in some situations.

Hey, Iain. We'd love for you to post your versions of the examples we're currently working on.

I agree with your philosophy of limiting things to accelerate progress and to focus more on specific technical aspects or specific areas of fretboard knowledge. It's something that got me inspired to work through this in a simpler way this time actually. My default process, when I run into technical hurdles is to basically go back to one form and work it through the cycles etc.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Here's updated fingering for what I'm practicing this week. I'm not really making these for personal use but more for communication purposes here. So, if there's a format that makes more sense, I'd be happy to tweak this in Neck Diagrams. Let me know. One click gives note names or intervals etc. Anyway, let me know if this makes sense, and I appreciate that others have posted some as well. It's definitely not required, but it's a nice add-on.

[FwLineberry]

Here's updated fingering for what I'm practicing this week. I'm not really making these for personal use but more for communication purposes here. So, if there's a format that makes more sense, I'd be happy to tweak this in Neck Diagrams. Let me know. One click gives note names or intervals etc. Anyway, let me know if this makes sense, and I appreciate that others have posted some as well. It's definitely not required, but it's a nice add-on.

The diagrams make perfect sense to me. You and I are using the same basic approach with a little variation in fingerings. I'm curious how much you're able to stick to those exact fingerings on this current crop of patterns.

I'm finding that I have to alter the fingers I use and occasionally shift out of position to make smooth transitions. This may be an area where a CAGED type approach starts to outshine a strict position approach.

.

[matt.guitarteacher]

The diagrams make perfect sense to me. You and I are using the same basic approach with a little variation in fingerings. I'm curious how much you're able to stick to those exact fingerings on this current crop of patterns.

I'm finding that I have to alter the fingers I use and occasionally shift out of position to make smooth transitions. This may be an area where a CAGED type approach starts to outshine a strict position approach.

.

Well, honestly, that's the primary idea behind reg's use of this particular fingering. If you default II first finger stretches, you can use the second finger as your starting reference for fingerings , and they all stay pretty much the same.

I would assume tha twith the fourth finger stretch fingerings, you're mostly using a first finger reference? Anyway, the first finger is in a different position relative to the second finger in different fingerings, depending on scale degree and half steps etc, whereas with a second finger reference, since the second finger is the reference point, it doesn't change, since you don't stretch second finger.

[FwLineberry]

Well, honestly, that's the primary idea behind reg's use of this particular fingering. If you default II first finger stretches, you can use the second finger as your starting reference for fingerings , and they all stay pretty much the same.

I would assume tha twith the fourth finger stretch fingerings, you're mostly using a first finger reference? Anyway, the first finger is in a different position relative to the second finger in different fingerings, depending on scale degree and half steps etc, whereas with a second finger reference, since the second finger is the reference point, it doesn't change, since you don't stretch second finger.

The way I'm doing it is strictly by position. The position dictates the reference. For example 3rd position for me means fingers 1 1 2 3 4 4 with 2 at the 4th fret. Any notes that fall on those frets are covered by the designated finger as much as is practical.

I may be giving the impression that I'm married to these fingerings, but I'm not. Under normal playing situations I use any fingering or position that facilitates what I want to play. For this material, however, I decided to try it in strict positions as a limitation exercise in order to try and force myself away from pattern recognition. As soon as I take the same shape and move it up two frets, my brain switches to pattern recognition and no longer registers what I'm actually playing. It's impossible for me not to pick up on patterns. Even with these drills the way I'm trying to approach it my brain immediately picks up on 4ths are just over a string or down a string and down two frets. When you have to switch octaves, it always moves from shape x to shape y.

The problem with patterns for me is that if I find myself in a situation where I want to play a certain idea I either try to move to the location where I know the idea best or I experience hesitation because I'm in an unfamiliar location for playing that idea.

Another example of how this bites me is I'm working through Martino's line studies from Linear Expressions. Memorizing and playing the exercises required very little effort. It's just a sequence of notes with a lot of repeated "licks" and variations. The problem comes when I want to apply his ideas. I'm not recognizing things as "that's a G lick" That's a Bb lick". That's mainly due to how he works off the D G and B strings for reference. That's always been a week spot of mine. I see references off the E A and E strings mostly.


Anyway, here are the fingerings I'm using for this batch of drills. Each week I've picked a different criteria for the positions. Week one was starting from middle finger on the C note from the E A and D strings. That dictated 2nd, 7th and 9th positions. Last week I started with the index finger on the C. That dictated 3rd, 8th and 10th positions. This week I'm starting with the pinky on the C. That dictates 5th, 7th and 12th or open positions.


Chromatic in open position

Major Arpeggios - Chromatic- Open Position.pdf


4ths in 5th position - this require a couple of altered fingerings and using the A shape off the E string instead of the D string where I would have preferred. I couldn't come up with any way to get from a D string fingering of A to an A string fingering of D.

Major Arpeggios - 4ths -5th Position.pdf


2nds in 7th position - For my D string based position, I'm playing roots off the D G and B strings. This requires me to displace the octave on the higher arpeggios in order to stay in position. The F requires moving up to 8th position. The final Db requires either an awkward shift down a string and down a fret with the index finger or moving up to the 8th position again.

Major Arpeggios - 2nds - 7th Position.pdf


Minor 3rds in 12th position - This is the most awkward to finger so far. The opening C requires fingering the octave with the 3rd finger in order to get the middle finger over to the D string for the Eb.

Major Arpeggios - Minor 3rds - 12th Position.pdf

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[Michael Kaye]

This is great discussion guys.

I'm a little behind. patterns 5 and 6 giving me fits still at raised tempos especially major 2nds and min 3rds but I'll get there. probably wont be able to post anything until Friday. have a busy week. but I'm hanging in there.

[bako]

I'm a big advocate of practicing material inside 5 frets.This is all that is needed to cover 2 1/3
octaves of the chromatic scale and therefore addresses all keys within the limits of this range.
While doing so yields some less than favorite fingerings, it provides the clearest vantage point
of relevant notes in close proximity.

Any awkward fingering that occurs within the chosen 5 frets, has an improved option in the
5 fret position either one below or one above, also known as a 6 fret position.
Hence, the beauty of a 6 fret position (or two adjacent 5 fret positions from my vantage point)
is that it allows avoidance of these awkward fingerings.

Another unasked for suggestion for those practicing within a position concept is to start on the lowest available
occurence of the chord type and inversion rather than on C.
So pattern 1 in 1st position looks like this starting on F and continuing to the top of the position:


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------2----------3-
-------------------------------------------1----------2----------3---------4--------5--------1----------2----
-----------3----------4--------5-------1----------2----------3-------1-4------2-5-------3----------4-------
-------3---------1-4------1-5------3----------4--------1-5-------2---------3---------4----------5----------
-1--5---------2---------3--------4----------5------------------------------------------------------------------



---------------------------------------1----------2-------------3-----------4----------5--------------------
----------4---------5--------------1----------2-------------3--------1-4--------2-5-----------------------
-------3------1-4---------------2-----------3-----------4--------1-----------2----------------------------
-1-5-------2-----------------3-----------4-----------5-----------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not doing the study group but I was encouraged to break out the book for the first time in decades.
My favorite parts of the book is it's application of different interval cycles to the patterns.
In silent solidarity, I spent a few days playing self generated patterns in a way that suits my skills and interests.
Carry on, nice work.

[fep]

Tried it over a drum improvisation making it much easier to lose the "1" downbeat.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Tried it over a drum improvisation making it much easier to lose the "1" downbeat.

Nice. Love the drum loop and the playing, especially the improv after. Your fingerings looks mostly the same as mine. You're using six patterns?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Deadline version of Patterns 7-10 at 139 bpm. 3rd and 7th positions.

Drum genius pattern: Swing Med 04

Comments/critiques please.

[Michael Kaye]

I have a question.....

I haven't been paying attention - when you guys are cycling back with patterns 5 and 6 but doing the interval cycles of patterns 1 - 4, are you targeting the tempos of 1 - 4 or the tempos of 5 and 6?

[FwLineberry]

I have a question.....

I haven't been paying attention - when you guys are cycling back with patterns 5 and 6 but doing the interval cycles of patterns 1 - 4, are you targeting the tempos of 1 - 4 or the tempos of 5 and 6?

Tempos of 5 and 6.

You're not really going back you're just using the same set of four chord cycles on the new material.

.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Did a little of these at 160 when I forgot to factor this in, and it slightly hurt my feelings. 160 is faster than 138. Just saying. :-)

[FwLineberry]

Here is exercises 7 through 10. I combined them into one drill in four postions:

1. 7 - open position - roots on A D G strings
2. 8 - 5th position - roots on E A D strings
3. 9 - 7th position - roots on D G B strings
4. 10 - 12th position - roots on A D G strings

The last pattern is a little sloppy, but I didn't think I'd get a better take without spending all afternoon. What you see is what you get. Most of the fingerings in that position are not very practical that high on the neck. I'd change things around under actual playing conditions.


Tempo is 120 with a cha-cha-cha beat.

For this next week, I'm planning on working up exercises 11 and 12 in three of the variations (4ths, 2nds, min 3rds) starting off my middle finger. So 2nd, 7th and 9th positions. I'll probably post some fingerings tomorrow once I figure out how it's going to go.

.

[MarkRhodes]

Been a crazy week for me, with mom going from the ER to a hospital bed and then to a skilled nursing facility. (Broken shoulder. )
Very little time to practice.

But I want to stay on this bus, so I did what I could.

[FwLineberry]

After working with 4ths in the second position, I decided the stretches were not very practical, too much jumping from the index on the 1st fret to the pinky on the 6th fret. So I figured I'd see how it goes with moving my hand out of strict position and avoiding any stretches.

Here's the fingerings I've decided on


Major Arpeggios - 4ths -2nd-3rd Position.pdf



For the C and B chords I play the ascending version with my 3rd finger in order to descend the following chord starting on the 4th finger. The 4th finger is used for descending on both.

For the final C chord, I'm moving up to 5th position and playing the same fingering as A. I didn't feel like making a second page for one diagram, though.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Here is exercises 7 through 10. I combined them into one drill in four postions:

1. 7 - open position - roots on A D G strings
2. 8 - 5th position - roots on E A D strings
3. 9 - 7th position - roots on D G B strings
4. 10 - 12th position - roots on A D G strings

The last pattern is a little sloppy, but I didn't think I'd get a better take without spending all afternoon. What you see is what you get. Most of the fingerings in that position are not very practical that high on the neck. I'd change things around under actual playing conditions.


Tempo is 120 with a cha-cha-cha beat.

For this next week, I'm planning on working up exercises 11 and 12 in three of the variations (4ths, 2nds, min 3rds) starting off my middle finger. So 2nd, 7th and 9th positions. I'll probably post some fingerings tomorrow once I figure out how it's going to go.

.

Good job. I like how you got all of these into a single take. Mine definitely has a ransom note quality to the competitively. (I'm looking forward to having a little more time this week. We are out of town for much of this week.) Thanks for posting.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Been a crazy week for me, with mom going from the ER to a hospital bed and then to a skilled nursing facility. (Broken shoulder. )
Very little time to practice.

But I want to stay on this bus, so I did what I could.

Hey Mark, good job getting these up during your crazy week. Hope this week is downright boring. :-) thanks for posting.

[android]

Hi Everyone

Sorry for the dumb question, but I have noticed this interesting thread for a new guy to Jazz guitar and wondered if it's too late to join??
what book are you studying?-

Many Thanks
Andy

[matt.guitarteacher]

Hi Everyone

Sorry for the dumb question, but I have noticed this interesting thread for a new guy to Jazz guitar and wondered if it's too late to join??
what book are you studying?-

Many Thanks
Andy

Feel free to join in. You can jump in where we are currently or post older patterns etc... Whatever you like.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Based on the book Patterns for Jazz by Jerry Coker, Jimmy Casale, Gary Campbell and Jerry Greene.