Guitar Picking Doubts (Light vs Strong)

[Philco]

I wish it weren't so (and I'd like to dismiss it as 'putting Descartes before the horse...'), but I think one's approach to picking matters.

Re. light vs strong, I favour light - but I think what I most value is loud-soft dynamic range. I think that's what I was going for when I started taking tentative steps back toward traditional picking - and recorded this one Sunday morning ('The Pyjama Takes'):

But I've become more confident since then - because I've established my own criteria and priorities.

I occasionally get to gig in an organ trio, and we're starting to listen to each other - this is important to me, because we're going beyond what I'm fond of calling 'parallel play' (after Piaget) and I'm hopeful that we can build something of beauty together.

In that trio setting, my ideal is Benson picking with one of these Cool Thin picks (60mm, made of Juratex) and TI GB 14s on small-bodied guitar - but it's very dependent on 'groove'.

That picking also works fine playing solo under ideal conditions, and I've been enjoying using it at home all summer. But I haven't been able to use it on gigs - same strings on an 18" archtop with a floater - in humid (and windy) outdoor conditions.

On the other hand, a more traditional grip is working well with slightly clammy/sticky strings, and 'pick slanting' has become intuitive (regardless of grip) - allowing me to listen, think, feel and project from calmness (a big deal for me).

I really love your choice of notes and your feel.
Selfishly I hope you never go to the speedy side.
I'll take timing anytime.

[princeplanet]

('The Pyjama Takes'):

.

Beautiful!

[PMB]

I wish it weren't so (and I'd like to dismiss it as 'putting Descartes before the horse...'), but I think one's approach to picking matters.

Re. light vs strong, I favour light - but I think what I most value is loud-soft dynamic range. I think that's what I was going for when I started taking tentative steps back toward traditional picking - and recorded this one Sunday morning ('The Pyjama Takes'):

But I've become more confident since then - because I've established my own criteria and priorities.

I occasionally get to gig in an organ trio, and we're starting to listen to each other - this is important to me, because we're going beyond what I'm fond of calling 'parallel play' (after Piaget) and I'm hopeful that we can build something of beauty together.

In that trio setting, my ideal is Benson picking with one of these Cool Thin picks (60mm, made of Juratex) and TI GB 14s on small-bodied guitar - but it's very dependent on 'groove'.

That picking also works fine playing solo under ideal conditions, and I've been enjoying using it at home all summer. But I haven't been able to use it on gigs - same strings on an 18" archtop with a floater - in humid (and windy) outdoor conditions.

On the other hand, a more traditional grip is working well with slightly clammy/sticky strings, and 'pick slanting' has become intuitive (regardless of grip) - allowing me to listen, think, feel and project from calmness (a big deal for me).

Whatever you're doing, Mike, just keep doing it! Sounding excellent.

[whiskey02]

Yes, playing too hard all the time is almost as bad as being wimpy all the time, BUT, I maintain it is easier to be used to playing hard and learning to play soft than it is the other way. The dozens of tiny muscles and ligaments in the fingers, hand, wrist and arm are at least developed enough to bust out some volume when you need it. Light pickers have zero control, it seems, when attempting to pick hard.

It takes time, that is, if you wish to develop killer dynamics. But obviously most players don't care for that, so....

I respectfully completely disagree with every thing you've stated in this thread. I think you are interpreting comments of others incorrectly or expressing yourself quite poorly, and/or both.

[princeplanet]

I respectfully completely disagree with every thing you've stated in this thread. I think you are interpreting comments of others incorrectly or expressing yourself quite poorly, and/or both.

I just checked, and, nah... Perhaps you're taking my comments a little too personally?...

[paul.trapanese]

Lots of great players use a lighter touch and low action. How about Wes Montgomery? Pat Metheny,Scott Henderson, Tal Farlow, McLaughlin, Scofield, and I would bet Django too. the list goes on and on.



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[christianm77]

Lots of great players use a lighter touch and low action. How about Wes Montgomery? Pat Metheny,Scott Henderson, Tal Farlow, McLaughlin, Scofield

Cool. Maybe.

, and I would bet Django too.

Eh?

[paul.trapanese]

Cool. Maybe.



Eh?

Most definitely. I would add Joe Pass and John Abercrombie.
I doubt Django was hitting it with high action with his fingers being bonded together. You can also hear some fret buzz.
There are video shots of Wes right over his neck and you can see the strings almost laying on the frets.


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[christianm77]

Most definitely.

Well, it's a matter of degree and there are a few variables here.

Have you ever tried playing gigs without amplification? If you play an acoustic guitar with a light electric style touch you will simply not be heard.

His set up was pretty light by the standards of the 1930's - .10 Argetine strings (higher string tensions though due to longer scale length), but AFAIK traditional Gypsy action is around 3-5mm. Again low compared to Freddie Green, but very much an acoustic set up. Which seems about right looking this famous film:



The fret buzz you hear is probably from light strings vibrating against the frets because they are vibrating a LOT - amplitude of a few mm in fact.

Anyway I think you are conflating a few seperate issues and also we are running up against limitations of terminology. I'll focus on the right hand here, because it's that which is producing the sound, and to be honest if you are fretting the strings any more than the bare minimum required force you have a technical issue. Sure, set up and so on affects the amount of sound you can get out of a string and how hard you need to fret strings, but there are quite a few variables here, so let's overlook that for now.

In the film Django's picking hand seems supremely relaxed. To say that he is picking 'hard' seems wrong somehow. Yet the amount of energy he is providing to the string is I would guess between twice to three times the energy of an electric player, from my own experiences as a gypsy jazz player.

He is playing rest strokes here, driving the strings of his guitar. Also picking position when he is playing with the full band maximises the amount of upper harmonics in his sound (somewhat like using bridge position on a tele) allowing him to cut through the two rhythm players playing nearer the soundhole. Also this is where the string tension is the highest, so more energy is required.

Loud playing can be very relaxed - just check out some great classical performers or for that matter, a proper
gypsy jazz player. So yeah 'hard' as opposed 'light' - poor choice of words. False dichotomy.

[rio]

Most definitely. I would add Joe Pass and John Abercrombie.
I doubt Django was hitting it with high action with his fingers being bonded together. You can also hear some fret buzz.
There are video shots of Wes right over his neck and you can see the strings almost laying on the frets.


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That was a big revelation for me when I discovered that Wes played with low action.

[princeplanet]

That was a big revelation for me when I discovered that Wes played with low action.

Well, you get a more angular displacement of the string's vibration with a pick, so you need more clearance to avoid the string vibrating against the upper frets. That maybe the reason thumb pickers get away with a lower action, but it doesn't mean us pickers can, so I'm not sure how any such "revelation" can serve you (us).

And as for DR, I read somewhere a quote from a cohort that DR pressed so hard with his fret fingers that he wore his frets out every few months. In fact, what was recalled was Django's "gypsy fix" for this which was to move his bridge piece sideways a little so the strings would hit a fresher part of the frets. Makes sense to me, I can tell by his tone projection that he played with greater than average force, with both hands. And yes, you can tell if he's pressing hard, the pitch sharpens a little, and there's a fuller transmission of sound through to the neck and sound board. His vibrato certainly shows that also, if you wiggle the strings as much as he did without maintaining forceful contact, your notes fade out. His don't, if anything, they seem to get louder as he wiggles!

Then again, I'm supposedly full of shit, so you may wish to just put me on ignore...

[jzucker]

benson uses low action too.

But we are a few decades past the era of electric guitar. The fastest players in the world (holdsworth, lane, quayle, marshall harrison, etc., are all using low action).

[destinytot]

Thanks very much indeed for the very kind comments and encouragement.

Regarding doubt, I think Revelation 3:16 puts it best: (from an online King James Version) "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." To me, that speaks about the importance of commitment - and of getting off the fence.

[christianm77]

I might add that I like heavy strings and a low action and i don't play light.

I do think Wes was actually digging in quite a bit.

[christianm77]

benson uses low action too.

But we are a few decades past the era of electric guitar. The fastest players in the world (holdsworth, lane, quayle, marshall harrison, etc., are all using low action).

I wouldn't say Quayle is one of the fastest in the world per se. Not compared to Shawn Lane (is anyone fast compared to Lane tho?) I think what is super impressive about the technical aspect of his playing is how rhythmically accurate and even he is for a legato player. That shit is hard to do which is why we rarely hear it (him and Holdsworth, Garsed, a few others.) His instructional vids are great btw.

(Btw have you seen that film of Django? I posted. That chromatic run? Slow down Django and it's perfect. It's freakish. In terms of right hand/left hand synchronisation it's pretty unusual for non GJ players because it requires you to synchronise shifting and picking, rather than separate fingers.... )

There is absolutely no reason in today's day and age to use a high action (unless you are a die hard vintage swing player) but I think the speed of ones playing is not necessarily connected to how hard one hits the strings and even action/string gauge. It's undoubtedly true that low actions facilitate fast playing (of course) - but string gauge? I think that depends on how you play.

From my perspective - like most gypsy pickers I can play pretty fast and loud without an amp, and from a picking point of view I have to have a bit of tension in the strings or the strings flap around too much for me to play accurately. I can't do what I do on a rock set up guitar. I imagine it would be the same for any gypsy style player including Django.

But I'm not using the amp for my tone. In fact that kind of heavily muted, gentle and accurate playing feels totally alien to me.

A legato player requires a soft touch because you have to balance the sounds of picking and hammering and pulling off.

But anyway I feel speed is a fairly small aspect of jazz guitar playing as a whole. I actually feel the contemporary jazz guitar movement tends to avoid sheer speed although most of the current crop of great chops and play in a more electric way, are usually playing difficult non-guitaristic stuff that requires great agility and technique. Probably lighter strings too, .11 roundwounds etx, straight necks.

Apparently Adam Rogers has a horrendous action and strings on his guitar though.

[destinytot]

destinytot really nice man. I enjoyed listening

it is surprising how well you sound with such picking and pick choice.

usualy i find a huge tonal diference bettween those thin picks and a regular celluloid standard 1mm with that regular tip (its almost pointed but not really pointed, rounded of on the edge).

also some jazzIII XL (after worning out the plastic edges that come from the pouring of the plastic into the mold) to have a completely diferent sound.

it surprises me that you found a 0.60m pick that does not bend (at least so much as one would expect)


on the benson picking i've tried that wierd angle but it never made much sense to me, i have to force it to happen, it's very tiring on my right hand, it's harder to control the strenght of the atacks for me. And he is a great musician but I don't really like his tone on the records/videos i've heard, just not my cup of tea. A bit trebbly. The oposite tone of the guys i've mencioned.

On the whole, I think the D'Andrea Pro-Plec 1.5 teardrop suits my temperament and style (which is getting narrower) more than the Cool Thin (though I'm keeping it in reserve for the organ trio). Just had a noodle with each:

[paul.trapanese]

Well, it's a matter of degree and there are a few variables here.

Have you ever tried playing gigs without amplification? If you play an acoustic guitar with a light electric style touch you will simply not be heard.

His set up was pretty light by the standards of the 1930's - .10 Argetine strings (higher string tensions though due to longer scale length), but AFAIK traditional Gypsy action is around 3-5mm. Again low compared to Freddie Green, but very much an acoustic set up. Which seems about right looking this famous film:



The fret buzz you hear is probably from light strings vibrating against the frets because they are vibrating a LOT - amplitude of a few mm in fact.

Anyway I think you are conflating a few seperate issues and also we are running up against limitations of terminology. I'll focus on the right hand here, because it's that which is producing the sound, and to be honest if you are fretting the strings any more than the bare minimum required force you have a technical issue. Sure, set up and so on affects the amount of sound you can get out of a string and how hard you need to fret strings, but there are quite a few variables here, so let's overlook that for now.

In the film Django's picking hand seems supremely relaxed. To say that he is picking 'hard' seems wrong somehow. Yet the amount of energy he is providing to the string is I would guess between twice to three times the energy of an electric player, from my own experiences as a gypsy jazz player.

He is playing rest strokes here, driving the strings of his guitar. Also picking position when he is playing with the full band maximises the amount of upper harmonics in his sound (somewhat like using bridge position on a tele) allowing him to cut through the two rhythm players playing nearer the soundhole. Also this is where the string tension is the highest, so more energy is required.

Loud playing can be very relaxed - just check out some great classical performers or for that matter, a proper
gypsy jazz player. So yeah 'hard' as opposed 'light' - poor choice of words. False dichotomy.

When I said "hitting it" I wasn't speaking of hard picking I meant he was using a low action. Like " I'm going to hit it with some heavy strings tonight!"
Many acoustic players use low action. Tommy Emmanuel for one. If your in a situation where your picking needs to be heavier because of volume then an amp or PA is needed.


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[christianm77]

When I said "hitting it" I wasn't speaking of hard picking I meant he was using a low action. Like " I'm going to hit it with some heavy strings tonight!"
Many acoustic players use low action. Tommy Emmanuel for one. If your in a situation where your picking needs to be heavier because of volume then an amp or PA is needed.

I have literally never used that expression, but each to their own.

I do quite often find myself playing without an amp for various reasons - restrictions on sound levels, no power (you could use a battery amp, but I don't actually own one.)

In this case you need to be able to project. But if your acoustic guitar is well set up there's no reason for the action to be ridiculous or unplayable. But low actions are relative - a lowish and light acoustic set up of a 2-3mm and .12 bronze strings might be very heavy for someone used to playing slinkies on a superstrat. YMMV as they say.

+ some guitars are just loud.

[paul.trapanese]

I have literally never used that expression, but each to their own.

I do quite often find myself playing without an amp for various reasons - restrictions on sound levels, no power (you could use a battery amp, but I don't actually own one.)

In this case you need to be able to project. But if your acoustic guitar is well set up there's no reason for the action to be ridiculous or unplayable. But low actions are relative - a lowish and light acoustic set up of a 2-3mm and .12 bronze strings might be very heavy for someone used to playing slinkies on a superstrat. YMMV as they say.

+ some guitars are just loud.

Ha! Well I see you're from London so it's not surprising you've never heard of that phrase.I'm a New Yorker and we have our own slang. As do you guys! Love London! Love the jazz refreshed movement there.


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[Hep To The Jive]

So light vs strong translated in common music language would be piano vs forte? Kinda funny if you think about it, discussing if someone only plays piano while some always on forte.

I too play acoustically some time, and I'm lucky I have a resonator, otherwise no way I could be heard with a band. But even so, I can only play chord breaks as solos, no amount of strong picking would make it sufficient in volume for single lines. I'm talking about noisy pub environments here, of course. A gently listening audience may be a different story, but it's not my gig.

[christianm77]

Ha! Well I see you're from London so it's not surprising you've never heard of that phrase.I'm a New Yorker and we have our own slang. As do you guys! Love London! Love the jazz refreshed movement there.


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Cool!

Jazz:refreshed - Crikey haven't been to one of their things for years - you went to Mau Mau in Portobello Rd?

Naturally I love New York :-)

[paul.trapanese]

Cool!

Jazz:refreshed - Crikey haven't been to one of their things for years - you went to Mau Mau in Portobello Rd?

Naturally I love New York :-)

No. We were there a few years ago when my son was working in London. Didnt know about jazz refreshed movement.


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[gggomez]

I read somewhere Gilad Hekselman has his amp up really loud and picks super light.

I often pick too hard. Made a conscious decision to turn my amp up louder and pick softer and man the improvement in the accuracy of my playing I guess cause I was all relaxed, then the flow on impact on my lines, made me super happy.

[christianm77]

I read somewhere Gilad Hekselman has his amp up really loud and picks super light.

Yeah he picks like a wuss.

I often pick too hard. Made a conscious decision to turn my amp up louder and pick softer and man the improvement in the accuracy of my playing I guess cause I was all relaxed, then the flow on impact on my lines, made me super happy.

Joking aside, I actually find this suprisingly difficult to do. I guess I'm just a basher,

[paul.trapanese]

I read somewhere Gilad Hekselman has his amp up really loud and picks super light.

I often pick too hard. Made a conscious decision to turn my amp up louder and pick softer and man the improvement in the accuracy of my playing I guess cause I was all relaxed, then the flow on impact on my lines, made me super happy.

I have an old Wes jazz instruction book from 1970 where he says to "let the amp do the work." Good advice.


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