Guitar Picking Doubts (Light vs Strong)

[christianm77]

That's not to say it's a pointless question but I think such analyses can actually impair your playing and musical flow. Of course, if you have some bastard technique which is fundamentally wrong and requires remedial action, then it is best to just stop and figure out what the problem is and correct it.

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I think it's all just fine provided people make a firm divide between practice and playing. Heavy analysis and thinking in the practice room is a actually a must... on the bandstand it is poison.

This is more natural for the gigging player than someone who mostly plays alone, for obvious reasons. It sounds stupid but hobbyist players might find it useful to do something like put a hat on when practicing.... anything just to help you register that you are in that mode.

[princeplanet]

... It sounds stupid but hobbyist players might find it useful to do something like put a hat on when practicing.... anything just to help you register that you are in that mode.

..ah yes, the ass-hat... I thought players only put in on at gigs though.. sorry, didn't mean to be kurt (wink-winkle)..

[Philco]

Here is Perry Hughes using what appears to be a thin flexible pick. I wouldn't say he was picking very hard but there are plenty of dynamics.

[Carloscepinha]

There is something everyone seems to be missing,

the pick thickness afects the strenght of the picking stroke. Most 2mm picks with "normal" tip will sound light picking and smooth compared to a 1mm pick with about 50% of the same strenght. The size of the fretboard scale also matters since 24.75" usualy has less "snap" than 25.5".


About Benson, I had a friend telling me he met him and the pick he was using was 0.75 pointy. Wich makes sense to me since his tone sounds a bit trebbly sometimes even brittle. Might have "energy" or "excitement" and I recognize how great Benson is, but its just far from my favourite tone.


Perry Hughes is really nice! the pick does sound a bit trebbly. Thanks for sharing!

Tim's video was interesting, over time the dynamics seem to be a bit flat on the highs while some bass notes boom really hard.

The strat guy was surprising.

[christianm77]

..ah yes, the ass-hat... I thought players only put in on at gigs though.. sorry, didn't mean to be kurt (wink-winkle)..

Haha, that's only if you have the bald patch. In this case reverse my advice.

[princeplanet]

Here is Perry Hughes using what appears to be a thin flexible pick. I wouldn't say he was picking very hard but there are plenty of dynamics.

I like it! Have not heard Perry Hughes before, thanks Philco! And yeah, clean and mean, plenty of snap and dynamics. Light pick perhaps, but nice solid attack with clear articulation. Any clips where he also plays slow melodic lines?

[christianm77]

I like it! Have not heard Perry Hughes before, thanks Philco! And yeah, clean and mean, plenty of snap and dynamics. Light pick perhaps, but nice solid attack with clear articulation. Any clips where he also plays slow melodic lines?

Put him on the GB thread haha! Enjoyed his playing, very swinging.

[morroben]

I maintain it is easier to be used to playing hard and learning to play soft than it is the other way. The dozens of tiny muscles and ligaments in the fingers, hand, wrist and arm are at least developed enough to bust out some volume when you need it. Light pickers have zero control, it seems, when attempting to pick hard.

This is the opposite of my experience.

[princeplanet]

This is the opposite of my experience.

Interesting. Wanna elaborate?

[christianm77]

This is the opposite of my experience.

I think it depends how you do it.

[princeplanet]

I've recorded and produced thousands of guitar players in my studio over the years (yes, literally) and my experience is that if you have a light picker and you ask them to pick harder, they lose time, feel, everything... They could be there for hours and just not be able to do it. Now, for the times when someone is striking too aggressively and you ask them to back off, then they lose the plot as well, but after a few minutes they can and do adjust. That's why I say It's easier for a hard player to play soft than the other way.

If your conclusion doesn't concur, then I'm interested to know more.

[Rhythmisking]

That's not to say it's a pointless question but I think such analyses can actually impair your playing and musical flow. Of course, if you have some bastard technique which is fundamentally wrong and requires remedial action, then it is best to just stop and figure out what the problem is and correct it.

I'm pretty sure my picking, guitar playing, horn playing, as well as most of my life is essentially a collection of fundamentally wrong bastard techniques...and remedial action may be a bridge too far at this point

[christianm77]

Hitting the strings too hard does tend to make most players push though.

[princeplanet]

Hitting the strings too hard does tend to make most players push though.

Yes, especially if a player is trying to pick harder than he/she is used to.

[pkirk]

And Julian Lage, someone that uses light and hard picking and gets a lot of dynamics:

Wow, that's an amazing performance. J. Lage is really incredible here.

[princeplanet]

Yes, JL playing into compression and break up distortion is really digging in at many points. His sound is actually (intentionally) limiting his dynamics and he's playing to that range really well. Some say he reminds of listening to classical guitar with a pick and an amp, 2 things that would horrify true classical guitarists, who of course need no assistance with their natural range of dynamics...

[Carloscepinha]

Maybe you said it all.

Classical guitarists, that play a flat top nylon stringed instrument with "bow action" so that they can hammer the strings with the finger and nail into the sound-hole of the guitar. Strings at least 5mm high. Proper tecnique generates a huge acoustic sound.
(studied classical guitar for 1 year)

Althought translating that tecnique into an electrified instrument, even when played unpluged, creates a dull sound.

- After 1year some cover band called and it was a very traumatizing experience, having such "great tecnique" as many would say because of classical guitar, I could not play my Ibanez RG with 010s at 2mm. I had all the strenght but lost all the precision needed for such small movements - very depressing.

Also, shredding with such vigor, I used coated strings and the coating got ripped of on the fretting places and picking places of the string. Also the frets got really worn out and had this holes on them, specially on unwound strings.

Maybe Jazz archtops strung with regular eletric guitar strings and pickups, we can think of them as half acoustic and half electric. If it was an acoustic instrument (like a really old L5) we would use regular acoustic guitar steel/bronze strings?
(maybe setup is not 1mm shred but also not 4mm classical, but something in bettween?)

Not that I'm a huge fan, but Tommy Emanuel has his acoustic guitars action really really low and almost straight neck. Again seems to be quite the contradiction of what we would expect.

Pasquale Grasso used to play classical guitar, and I've noticed him playing archtops with TI swing 011, wich are quite light strings. Same tension as regular 010 on the Ibanez RGs.

[christianm77]

Thanks for the info on PG's setup i did wonder.

In terms of acoustic archtops the actions were pretty high and the strings very heavy (wound b strings were the standard). In fact the odd triangular cross section of the necks of vintage archtops are designed to allow the thumb to apply force more efficiently to hold down the strings.

Obviously since the development of amplification neck designs on archtops have changed a lot!

I think most modern acoustic archtops players use standard bronze strings or monels. I don't think anyone is keen to go back to the days of the wound b string lol (although there are probably some die hard aficionados out there.)

Incidentally I believe that Django used .10 argentines on his Selmer guitar (albeit with a longer scale length than you'd find on a Gibson) and Gypsy Jazz actions are otoh not too bad (about 3mm is standard.) But then, you don't have to play with a big band. The Selmer/Maccaferri guitars project great acoustically - if you have a respectful audience. I'd be interested to hear one head to head with a classical guitar.

Obviously using a pick with rest strokes is probably the loudest way to play the guitar, but Id not be surprised if concert guitarists weren't on a par, so the comparison might not be that stupid?

[Para]

Robert Conti uses very light picks.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Pasquale's use of reasonably low tension and gauge strings is not surprising. His use of the Chuck Wayne style of picking means that it can be difficult to pick very hard since you're moving the pick from the thumb and fingers rather than the wrist and elbow; the smaller joints almost by definition can't pick as hard as the bigger ones.

[Carloscepinha]

I forgot to add about PG that he uses 1mm teardrop picks, wich makes perfect sense combined with what you just said.

I tried a teardrop and it creates very little resistance or "traction" bettween the pick and the string, compared to a standard 1mm/1.14mm.

However his strings do not seem to be setup so low, maybe because of the lack of tension they would create a lot of buzz. On the other hand Bernstein's strings look quite low actualy, but he uses 14/52. And a JazzIII XL stiffo pick.

I tried that pick and it makes me sound that I'm picking harder, to have the same output compared to a standard 1mm celluloid, I have to pick a lot lighter with the JazzIII, but it does create more resitance and traction on the strings.


PS - Also secondary topic of analyzis would be, picking using more finger or wrist joints? (someguys even use the elbow)

[christianm77]

Low and heavy top/light bottom is the way I like it personally. Am I right in thinking heavy strings wiggle around less at the same pitch as lighter ones or is that nonsense?

[Vladan]

... more mass => same work over less distance ... you were physics student, or something similarly technical, weren't you?

[christianm77]

... more mass => same work over less distance ... you were physics student, or something similarly technical, weren't you?

That was a loooooong time ago

[Lobomov]

Light picks and speed.

Top shredder Paul Gilbert plays with the standard .60 orange dunlop pick (tho Dunlop makes a black Mr. Big version for him). While it costs him a bit of speed, he likes the sound better according to his gig rig interview on youtube.