Hammering on/pulling off onto the down beat

**christianm77** · 07-07-2016, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

With respect and apologies to the player above, these are what the heads sound like on guitar. Take away the sax underneath, and tell me if you think this sounds compelling to you on the guitar. I'd rather hear these heads played on the mouth organ, piano accordian, or tuned wine glasses!

Contrast this to some nice Martino, Wes or GB lines that were written for the guitar...

Now don't get me wrong, I transcribe sax solos a fair bit, even Bird, but I still say the heads are usually square, the hip shit is in the solos. Sure, I understand people play them for skill training exercises, but if you're gonna shed stuff for hours, you might as well shed stuff that is actually useable on the bandstand. When I hear guitarists quoting Bird heads more than they should it's an instant turn off. I've never heard it sound commanding like it can on a horn, or even piano. Some things just weren't meant to be, like Stanley Jordan with his tap guitar wishing it was a piano. Yeah it's amazing (that anyone would bother...), and it's difficult and it's unique. Too bad it isn't entertaining!

Here's Moreno doing it. I think it sounds commanding to my ears, and swinging, which is why I got his video.

**princeplanet** · 07-07-2016, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by joe2758

that you playing prince?

No!

**princeplanet** · 07-07-2016, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Here's Moreno doing it. I think it sounds commanding to my ears, and swinging, which is why I got his video.

Obviously better and almost as it good as it can get on the gtr, but still far from owning it, IMO...

**joe2758** · 07-07-2016, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

What are you cats doing for eighth note triplets?

v^vv or v^v^

**joe2758** · 07-07-2016, 10:15 AM

ugh who am I kidding I'm not a cat yet

**princeplanet** · 07-07-2016, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

What are you cats doing for eighth note triplets?

Alt as well as eco, ie, for strings with 3 notes, D U D, D U D, etc. for string with 2 notes slur the second note so I still come down stroke onto the next note on the next string. When ascending with eco, I do the reverse, ie, U D U, U D U and slurring the 2nd notes where the string has 2 notes so I can change string on the U. Kinda with that angled rest stroke feel.... How 'bout you?

**PMB** · 07-07-2016, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

What are you cats doing for eighth note triplets?

Whenever it's feasible, I'll slur each note of the triplet and continue that on to the following downbeat. That's why I prefer to play the first four notes that open Donna Lee on the 2nd string (G-Ab-G-F), move to the 3rd string (Fb-Eb then a slide from Db-C) and finish the phrase on the 4th (Bb-A slur).

**christianm77** · 07-07-2016, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Alt as well as eco, ie, for strings with 3 notes, D U D, D U D, etc. for string with 2 notes slur the second note so I still come down stroke onto the next note on the next string. When ascending with eco, I do the reverse, ie, U D U, U D U and slurring the 2nd notes where the string has 2 notes so I can change string on the U. Kinda with that angled rest stroke feel.... How 'bout you?

I'm meaning for a triplet embellishment, for example first three notes of Donna Lee,

Been trying some different combinations, but I'm thinking pick notes 1 and 2 and slur the 3rd. (Which means you pick the next note on the beat) is quite funky because you are hitting the second note of the triplet which is always cool.

But on the other hand, picking 1, 3 and slur into the next beat is more like the eight note rules.

**pamosmusic** · 07-07-2016, 11:31 AM

I do whatever works ... My goal is usually to slur both of the second two notes but obviously that's often not possible. Truth be told I've thought a lot about that and I'm not really sure how to articulate that ... I also imagined I was choosing to slur when possible mostly because my pick isn't fast.

Embellishments ala Donna Lee definitely pick-slur-slur ... Same with sort of chromatic walkups like the end of m6 in Scrapple from the Apple are the same. Though sometimes I like to pick the last triplet to accent the pull into the downbeat.

**christianm77** · 07-07-2016, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

I do whatever works ... My goal is usually to slur both of the second two notes but obviously that's often not possible. Truth be told I've thought a lot about that and I'm not really sure how to articulate that ... I also imagined I was choosing to slur when possible mostly because my pick isn't fast.

Embellishments ala Donna Lee definitely pick-slur-slur ... Same with sort of chromatic walkups like the end of m6 in Scrapple from the Apple are the same. Though sometimes I like to pick the last triplet to accent the pull into the downbeat.

Yeah that's how I've been doing it for years, but I kind like the funky pull of going for the second note.

I feel you re: the walk up. (A Gypsy jazz player would articulate the walk up DUDD incidentally)

**Hep To The Jive** · 07-08-2016, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by PMB

Whenever it's feasible, I'll slur each note of the triplet and continue that on to the following downbeat. That's why I prefer to play the first four notes that open Donna Lee on the 2nd string (G-Ab-G-F), move to the 3rd string (Fb-Eb then a slide from Db-C) and finish the phrase on the 4th (Bb-A slur).

Im doing it exactly the same way! Does anybody pick all of those notes? I doubt it...

**PMB** · 07-08-2016, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Im doing it exactly the same way! Does anybody pick all of those notes? I doubt it...

Unlike most Parker heads (and I believe Fats Navarro's Ice Freezes Red is the genesis of the tune), the lines are long and sinuous. My approach is to reflect that quality with lots of slurring and slides. As a result, I never really stay in positions for too long, preferring to reflect similarity of contour with parallel fingerings.

**PMB** · 07-08-2016, 04:06 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

@PMB - if you have a pdf of a Donna Lee fingering could you post it? It would be interesting to compare to Moreno's fingering.

Hey Christian, I found my Donna Lee file (or at least a hard copy that I could convert back into Sibelius):

Hammering on/pulling off onto the down beat-dl1-jpg

Hammering on/pulling off onto the down beat-dl1-jpg

Hammering on/pulling off onto the down beat-dl2-jpg

**christianm77** · 07-08-2016, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by PMB

Hey Christian, I found my Donna Lee file (or at least a hard copy that I could convert back into Sibelius):

Hammering on/pulling off onto the down beat-dl1-jpg

What a star!

I'll share my own fingering (based on what I can glean from Moreno's) as a comparison, if I get a moment.

**christianm77** · 07-08-2016, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by PMB

Unlike most Parker heads (and I believe Fats Navarro's Ice Freezes Red is the genesis of the tune), the lines are long and sinuous. My approach is to reflect that quality with lots of slurring and slides. As a result, I never really stay in positions for too long, preferring to reflect similarity of contour with parallel fingerings.

It's more like Little Willie Leaps, I have to say. That's why I kind of feel Miles may have been telling the truth, and he wrote Donna Lee.

**christianm77** · 07-08-2016, 09:52 AM

Moreno's definitely picking the first two triplet eights on DL, and then slurring the third onto the beat. I really like this effect. He uses this articulation several times in his version of the head - everywhere where there's a triplet basically.

I can't find a youtube of him, so you'll just have to buy the lesson if you want to see him do it sadly..

**christianm77** · 07-08-2016, 10:32 AM

Hammering on/pulling off onto the down beat-moreno-dl-fingerings-jpg

The start of it anyway. This took quite a bit of careful watching. Does anyone know of a video player that will allow you to add a marker to and/or loop the video? Would make progress a bit quicker... :-)

Things I notice
- Mike plays the notes a little different to way I learned it - a few differences musically.
- He doesn't overdo the legato thing - for example he picks in a couple of places where he could use a slur.
- He picks the second triplet as well as the first on those embellishments.
- Ending on a downstroke on the off beat is big and clever
- I really hate doing pull offs

**joe2758** · 07-08-2016, 10:49 AM

Christian, not sure if this helps, but I used VLC video player to slow down one of the videos I purchased from mymusicmasterclasses

**christianm77** · 07-08-2016, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

Christian, not sure if this helps, but I used VLC video player to slow down one of the videos I purchased from mymusicmasterclasses

I'll check it out... Cheers :-)

EDIT: that's exactly the thing. Cheers!

**PMB** · 07-08-2016, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

The start of it anyway. This took quite a bit of careful watching. Does anyone know of a video player that will allow you to add a marker to and/or loop the video? Would make progress a bit quicker... :-)

Things I notice
- Mike plays the notes a little different to way I learned it - a few differences musically.
- He doesn't overdo the legato thing - for example he picks in a couple of places where he could use a slur.
- He picks the second triplet as well as the first on those embellishments.
- Ending on a downstroke on the off beat is big and clever
- I really hate doing pull offs

Thanks for that, Christian. I'll probably pick up those videos. I have a few in the series and they're great productions.

As I stated, my approach unconsciously reflects trying to match the contour and shapes of the material with the fingerings. The tune for me has a kind of tumbling quality that requires lots of movement. Thinking about this, I'm totally self-taught on the guitar (but a classically-trained pianist - go figure!). I started out at 8 years old back in 1969 playing lines with one finger, all over the neck. Pentatonic boxes, CAGED, 7 positions and use of the other fingers all came gradually when I'd hit a wall. After thorough immersion in all types of systematic fingerings and mappings of the guitar neck, I find I'm coming out the other side and I've noticed that most of my favourite recent players like Peter Bernstein, Romain Pilon and Jesse Van Ruller seem to have a very non-doctrinaire approach to fingerings and positions, preferring to employ whatever gets the job done.

Incidentally, I don't necessarily catch all those slurs when playing the head. I also purposefully left them out where I wanted to more clearly articulate the form.

**christianm77** · 07-08-2016, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by PMB

I find I'm coming out the other side and I've noticed that most of my favourite recent players like Peter Bernstein, Romain Pilon and Jesse Van Ruller seem to have a very non-doctrinaire approach to fingerings and positions, preferring to employ whatever gets the job done.

I'd go further and say this is what all of my favourite players do, without exception.

I don't think there's anything wrong with systems, but it's easy to get carried away :-)

In the end I don't think I'll copy Mike (or your) fingerings, I'll come up with something that suits me. But it's good to see different options and spend time thinking about what you do...

**Hep To The Jive** · 07-08-2016, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I'd go further and say this is what all of my favourite players do, without exception.

I don't think there's anything wrong with systems, but it's easy to get carried away :-)

In the end I don't think I'll copy Mike (or your) fingerings, I'll come up with something that suits me. But it's good to see different options and spend time thinking about what you do...

Fingerings or articulation? Fingerings dont matter, but wether you pick or slur does make a difference, no?

**christianm77** · 07-08-2016, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Fingerings or articulation? Fingerings dont matter, but wether you pick or slur does make a difference, no?

The two things are not seperate. We all work within the physical limitations of the instrument. We find solutions that please us musically and physically.

dortmundjazzguitar · 07-09-2016, 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

i'm playing it very similarly. but i play the Bb to A (fourth and fifth note in bar 1, not counting the pickup) not on the g-string but on the d-string. it's more in the spirit of this phrasing concept, can be played with three (or even two) fingers, and avoids the awkward jump from A on the g-string to C on the a-string.

**christianm77** · 07-09-2016, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar

i'm playing it very similarly. but i play the Bb to A (fourth and fifth note in bar 1, not counting the pickup) not on the g-string but on the d-string. it's more in the spirit of this phrasing concept, can be played with three (or even two) fingers, and avoids the awkward jump from A on the g-string to C on the a-string.

Moreno's definitely playing the Bb and A on the third string. I daresay he has his reasons....

I don't personally think the string skips that big a deal given you have plenty of time to deal with it.