Ron Eschete on learning the guitar neck

[Groyniad]

So just wanted to share what seems to me like some serious practical wisdom from the very very fine

ron eschete (check out his 'lonesome road' on the tube)

playing in the 'common position'

between 2nd and 6th fret

C;F;Bb;Eb;G

playing these five keys between 2nd and 6th fret is easy (if you know your basic shapes). i won't bother trying to explain how simply the patterns sit here. in fact - of course - they 'sit' pretty simply all around the neck. and that is really why the r.e. approach is so good. because it carves some practical useable fretboard geography out of the endless abstract world of fretboard shapes and harmonic architecture.

2 things are crucial here - they're what makes this approach so practical.

the guitar sounds great between frets 2 and 6
C;F;Bb;Eb;G are the most common keys in the songbook

and here's the coup de gras

for the other seven keys you can just move up or down a semitone (single fret) as required.

now of course we want to play all over the guitar - but that simple thought can make attaining practical mastery of the neck a very very tricky business. if you learned to play nearly everything in this part of the neck - seeing it as a series of five interlocking and fixed patterns - repeating that process between say fret 7 and 12 would be a snip.

the point is that the fretboard can be very abstract and fractal and hard to come to be properly acquainted with for practical playing purposes - and r.e. has a way to focus on a 'common position' in the part of the guitar that sounds best playing the key centers that are found most often (and easily modifiable to accommodate all possible key centers) - that is super practical.

he makes absolutely no fuss about this in his book 'the complete practical guide for the jazz guitar soloist' - but its in there - and it organizes the way he presents all his examples.

and you've simply got to check this guy out if you don't know him. he's really got the post-bop (joe pass and beyond) guitar thing going on.

[MarkRhodes]

I don't doubt there is wisdom here and that you have gleaned some of it, but I am not sure you have given us enough to glean the same wisdom. For example, which basic shapes? CAGED shapes?

I do agree the guitar sounds good there. One of Herb Ellis's main Bb shapes is there. (The root, third and fifth at the 3rd fret and root, major 7, b7, or 6th on the high E string at frets 6, 5, 4, and 3 respectively.) Lot of nice lines in that area.

Just did a search at Amazon for the book you mention. 13 bucks in Kindle format. I have a Kindle but I've never read a guitar / music book on it. Can one print from a Kindle?

[MarkRhodes]

I just left Ron a message on his Facebook page asking him if he'd care to elaborate on this here. Hope he does!

[Groyniad]

that's a great idea mark

i'll elaborate further happily

vid. coming

[Groyniad]

here's another way to capture what's special about r.e.'s 'common position':

jazz guitarists tend to think in terms of shapes that can be moved around the neck of the guitar. the shape is the sort of thing that can stay the same whilst its actual place on the neck changes.

this is not wrong

but it can make learning how to see everything at any given time very hard indeed.

i haven't even considered a different approach - one which involves explicit focus on a certain bit of the neck - that never ever changes - and learns how 12 (moveable) shapes happen to be arranged right there.

i think it may be a big deal. the neck is actually not fractal - it does not loop round in abstract space and gobble up its own nut etc. etc. the harmonic patterns of course do do that in their way - but the neck they are actually mapped on, does not.

[MarkRhodes]

Thanks for that. I agree that one can be given too much to digest. "You can do this everywhere" is no great help until you've learned how to do it somewhere.

I played earlier and will play again later today. When I do, I'll see what I can make of this on the guitar (-conceptually, it's clear now.) At first blush, it seems congenial to the Herb Ellis approach, which was not CAGED but rather three main positions, each covering 4 to 6 frets (with some overlap).

[lawson-stone]

Kind of interesting too that the keys are all in ascending 4th: G,C,F,Bb,Eb.

[Groyniad]

the other simple thing thats really cool about it is this

you make 5 keys fundamental - the five that happen to be played the whole time

and the other 7 derived - you get them by moving one or other of the fundamental 5 up or down a fret/semi-tone.

---

so you can use the same logic in frets 7-12. focus on the 5 main keys and then get the others by moving up or down a wee bit. and then you've pretty much got it. 2 'zone's that go from the 2nd to the twelfth fret

bugger the 1st fret (except sometimes of course) - and the open strings can totally get lost (except sometimes of course)

but seriously this would be a very clever way to approach the neck for practical jazz purposes (until you get really up and running at least...)

---

[MarkRhodes]

I think so too. I have heard that Pat Martino spoke of four zones on the guitar: fret 1-4, 5-8, and 9-12 (at which point one is back to zone one.)

I like to play between frets 3 and 12. (Frets 2 to 6 and then 7 and 11 would cover this.)

First position is the hardest place to play on the guitar! The frets are furthest apart and one has to turn one's arm a bit to reach it.

[MarkRhodes]

Here's an interview with Ron:

Ron Eschete Interview, Sept 12, 2014 | Jazz Guitar Society


An excerpt, about meeting Howard Roberts and getting the GIT gig.

>>>>DP: So how did the GIT thing happen – did you know Howard (Roberts)?


RE: Well, I knew him, I met him a couple times – I went to a seminar that he gave and I walked in and paid my tuition and Joe Diorio was there – and they had already hired Joe, because Joe had just moved out from back east. Anyway, Pat (Hicks) said to Howard, “This is Ronnie Eschete, he’s got some transcriptions of yours.” And so Howard said “well, can you play any of them?”, so I just went up there with my Howard Roberts model (Epiphone) and just whooped the shit out of a bunch of his things! (laughs) You know? And he’s just sitting there looking at me and he looks at Pat and says “you gotta hire this guy!”. So anyways that’s how I got the gig and he knew Donnie Mock from seminars up in Seattle. So that’s how the original trio of us guys started- Howard, and then Joe and I and Don – and Jackie King, from down south. Then after he left, Les (Wise) took his place, so that’s how all of that got started.<<<<<

[MarkRhodes]

Another tidbit from the interview. According to Ron, both Joe Pass and George Van Eps were left handed but played the guitar right handed.

I wonder if I switched to left handed... ;o)

[PMB]

That is one of the classics in my opinion. Like the Pass and Galbraith books, it doesn't contain too much text but what's there is worthwhile, along with great sounding lines that introduce useful musical concepts. Although he doesn't name them CAGED, the shapes are identical. Following from Lawson's observation, I'm not sure why the examples aren't presented in a cycle of 4ths (G-C-F-Bb-Eb) but it doesn't really matter as far as the book is concerned as Ron doesn't go into connecting and moving through successive forms. Nice review Groyniad; you've nailed the essence of the book but I thought it was worth mentioning that the name's pronounced Esh-tay (he was born in Louisiana, hence the French connection). I didn't know that until hearing his name announced at a gig.

[MarkRhodes]

I thought it was worth mentioning that the name's pronounced Esh-tay (he was born in Louisiana, hence the French connection). I didn't know that until hearing his name announced at a gig.

When I lived in New Orleans a teacher I knew (-from the area) talked to me about Ron Eschete and I bought "Rain or Shine", the first CD of Ron's I could find. (In my case, I heard his name before I saw it in print.) Good stuff. Deeply good player. I'm surprised this book isn't still in print, as Ron's intros / endings book and chord melody phrases book still are. Must be the publisher....

[MarkRhodes]

Hey, guys, I heard from Ron Eschete via Facebook.

Here's what he wrote:
>>>>Hello Mark, I read through the thread on the forum and watched the video. Thank you for your complimentary words. I would like to give a substantial answer, but it would be so much easier to show on video. My luthier CB Hill has video equipment in his shop, and I hope to do something there and get it to you. -- Ron Eschete<<<<

Won't that be something?

[destinytot]

here's another way to capture what's special about r.e.'s 'common position':

Love the observation about this way not 'generating too many variables'.

[MarkRhodes]

Love the observation about this way not 'generating too many variables'.

Yes. On that front, Troy Grady (in an excerpt posted hereabouts recently) a scientist talks about "chunking" and musical performance. Bits of music (several notes) become one thing, and a long stream of notes would be built up, Lego-like, of smaller segments. Then this: it is harder for an expert to change just one note than it would be for a lesser player.

Anyway, the point is that 'maximum freedom' seems less truthful than 'great familiarity' in terms of what the great performers are actually doing.

[snoskier63]

I have been working on learning the fretboard better, so I am interested to hear what Mr. Eschete has to say.

[lawson-stone]

Hey, guys, I heard from Ron Eschete via Facebook.

Here's what he wrote:
>>>>Hello Mark, I read through the thread on the forum and watched the video. Thank you for your complimentary words. I would like to give a substantial answer, but it would be so much easier to show on video. My luthier CB Hill has video equipment in his shop, and I hope to do something there and get it to you. -- Ron Eschete<<<<

Won't that be something?

Well done!

[MarkRhodes]

Just checked again at Amazon.
Two used copies for sale.
One for $384.81
The other is $1,066.82
Plus shipping, no less.


Bet Ron wishes he had a box full of 'em to sell.

[MarkRhodes]

A trailer for a Jazz Guitar Society lesson....

[wizard3739]

Here's an interview with Ron:

Ron Eschete Interview, Sept 12, 2014 | Jazz Guitar Society


An excerpt, about meeting Howard Roberts and getting the GIT gig.

>>>>DP: So how did the GIT thing happen – did you know Howard (Roberts)?


RE: Well, I knew him, I met him a couple times – I went to a seminar that he gave and I walked in and paid my tuition and Joe Diorio was there – and they had already hired Joe, because Joe had just moved out from back east. Anyway, Pat (Hicks) said to Howard, “This is Ronnie Eschete, he’s got some transcriptions of yours.” And so Howard said “well, can you play any of them?”, so I just went up there with my Howard Roberts model (Epiphone) and just whooped the shit out of a bunch of his things! (laughs) You know? And he’s just sitting there looking at me and he looks at Pat and says “you gotta hire this guy!”. So anyways that’s how I got the gig and he knew Donnie Mock from seminars up in Seattle. So that’s how the original trio of us guys started- Howard, and then Joe and I and Don – and Jackie King, from down south. Then after he left, Les (Wise) took his place, so that’s how all of that got started.<<<<<

Ronnie is a very good friend although I don't see much of him since I left L.A, several years ago. Ronnie did come to Arizona a couple of years ago and did a concert in Payson, Az and a master class in Phoenix at that time. In fact, Ronnie, Joe, Les Wise an Don Mock are all friends I used to hang with at G.I.T., and Howard Roberts was my mentor at that time. I know all about how G.I.T. "happened", and I designed the first version of the Learning Modules for Pat Hicks. That was (1977-78), and was the first class of G.I.T. (best learning experience of my music education). I have many good memories from G.I.T.

wiz (Howie)

[Flat]

Ron was one of my favorite teachers at GIT in '84. Taught the Chord Melody class. Great guy, astounding player.

I bought the Kindle version of the book and downloaded it to my Kindle for Mac app on my laptop. Like Mark mentioned, you can't print. But on the laptop I can zoom in and take a screen capture, which I can print so I can focus on a certain scale or fingering for a while.

I also downloaded it to my Kindle, and it looks really nice on there, even though the screen is small. It makes it easy to zoom in on some bite-size bits. I think I could prop the Kindle up on a table and have a decent time of it.

Though I would prefer a traditional book...

I'm looking forward to seeing what I can learn. I like the concept.

That's great news on the possible video from Ron! Way to go, Mark!

[Groyniad]

the point about how to pronounce his name is very important

i knew i had it wrong - i taught philosophy in louisiana for nearly ten years

[Groyniad]

Just checked again at Amazon.
Two used copies for sale.
One for $384.81
The other is $1,066.82
Plus shipping, no less.


Bet Ron wishes he had a box full of 'em to sell.

i ordered it in the uk - and was sent the wrong book entirely - then i complained and got a copy

seems i was pretty lucky to get one

one of the great things about the book is the way it presents the ideas on the page - big enough to see at music-stand distance

he breaks up every double page into four or five excellent categories - i've never seen any jazz book so intelligently set out

'common position' - ideas all played between 2nd and 6th fret

'syncopated' - simple ideas including groovy syncopation

'3/4 time' - self explanatory

'pentatonic' - all the ones i've tried are really excellent - a fresh sound

'intervalic' - lots of larger intervals - great 'modern' sounds

'mainstream' - be-bop type ideas - all really well chosen

he neither bombards you (ted greene like) with a stupid number of sounds - nor limits you even to a particular cultural type of sounds

but as soon as you hear him play you realize why its all so well done

[gtrplrfla]

Ron Eschete never seems to get the recognition he truly deserves. He's a veritable whiz on 6 or 7 string guitar.
Please check out this video lesson regarding, "There'll Never Be Another You," written by Mack Gordon and Harry Warren.