Playing Arpeggios Fast vs. Playing Scalar Figures Fast on Guitar vs. other instrument

[AlsoRan]

I think others here, such as JZ, have mentioned that playing scalar runs at high tempos is a different animal from playing scalar runs fast when you compare the guitar to many other instruments.

Scales fall nicely on the neck and the intervals can be small but arpeggios, because of their wider intervals, require some string-skipping back and forth and other gymnastics that a Saxophone or trumpet does not have to fight with.

Is my statement correct? Comments, please...

[mr. beaumont]

Right...

but then again, who's playing arpeggios in order all the time?

[AlsoRan]

Right...

but then again, who's playing arpeggios in order all the time?

Good point. I guess to clarify, I have to say that the Saxophones and Trumpets can go through wider intervals much easier and faster than a guitarist. So for us to play Charlie Parker lines, its more challenging than it is on other instruments.

Is this an accepted reality that I am just now truly realizing? If so, then I have to acknowledge that we have some ceilings (as guitarists) that others don't face.

[TH]

Scales fall nicely on the neck and the intervals can be small but arpeggios, because of their wider intervals, require some string-skipping back and forth and other gymnastics that a Saxophone or trumpet does not have to fight with.

Is my statement correct? Comments, please...

What's a fight at the onset, when practiced with intention and persistence, can become a tool what you don't even think about. I play with a guy that plays with his fingers, and he doesn't even miss a rhythmic breath on the wider intervals.
Don't let the non-obvious keep you from exploring, or mastering a useful musical phrase.
Here's one example of someone who suggests a creative tool that can introduce wide interval sounds once you master them.
David

[bobby d]

Good points. I also play some keyboard and I've noticed that it's much easier to jump to higher or lower octaves on the keyboard (arps etc.). Saxophonists seem to have an advantage of playing everything faster. No inconvenient skipping, everything is right there at the fingertips. Also no need to sync left hand with right hand.

Fast arps on guitar requires finding the right technique (for you) and lots of practice on arps rather than the usual scale patterns most guitarists practice on.

OTOH, I also don't see playing fast two octave arps as being a very musical statement when improvising. JMO

[docbop]

I think others here, such as JZ, have mentioned that playing scalar runs at high tempos is a different animal from playing scalar runs fast when you compare the guitar to many other instruments.

Scales fall nicely on the neck and the intervals can be small but arpeggios, because of their wider intervals, require some string-skipping back and forth and other gymnastics that a Saxophone or trumpet does not have to fight with.

Is my statement correct? Comments, please...

Well you can using fingering that use stretches that reduce the string skips.

Also something I hear horn players talk about and not guitarist is pivoting on arpeggios. They take the starting note typcally a root and shift it up (or down depending) an octave. Try that on guitar it I find it eliminates a one of the string skips, and also to me makes the arpeggio sound more like a line than a arpeggio. They use to to extend arpeggios to make longer lines so they will mix regular arp's and pivots.

[christianm77]

Well you can using fingering that use stretches that reduce the string skips.

Also something I hear horn players talk about and not guitarist is pivoting on arpeggios. They take the starting note typcally a root and shift it up (or down depending) an octave. Try that on guitar it I find it eliminates a one of the string skips, and also to me makes the arpeggio sound more like a line than a arpeggio. They use to to extend arpeggios to make longer lines so they will mix regular arp's and pivots.

I'm really into this. I think it sounds great.

Re the op, I now find this stuff pretty easy and natural. You need to practice the language a lot, and adopt a sensible pick technique (usually a blend of approaches rather than anything dogmatic)

When you play jazz you are not looking for breakneck speed so much... Clarity and rhythmic precision is more important than shredding.

Incidentally if you are having trouble with skips, it's probably because you are probably keeping the pick in the plane of the strings and picking with a lateral forearm or wrist motion. There are ways to get around this.

[AlsoRan]

I'm really into this. I think it sounds great.

Re the op, I now find this stuff pretty easy and natural. You need to practice the language a lot, and adopt a sensible pick technique (usually a blend of approaches rather than anything dogmatic)

When you play jazz you are not looking for breakneck speed so much... Clarity and rhythmic precision is more important than shredding.

Incidentally if you are having trouble with skips, it's probably because you are probably keeping the pick in the plane of the strings and picking with a lateral forearm or wrist motion. There are ways to get around this.

I have been working on the technical aspect of playing for several months and have made great progress. I have also referenced the Troy Grady series and it has been a great help.

I have to admit, I can't really picture this "pivoting action" you and Doc Bop are writing about. Could one of you elaborate?

[docbop]

I have been working on the technical aspect of playing for several months and have made great progress. I have also referenced the Troy Grady series and it has been a great help.

I have to admit, I can't really picture this "pivoting action" you and Doc Bop are writing about. Could one of you elaborate?

Just take one of your arpeggios like a Maj7 that you'd play in order low to high 1, 3, 5, 7 . Now take the 1 and play it up an octave, then drop down and play the 3, 5, and 7.

[christianm77]

I have been working on the technical aspect of playing for several months and have made great progress. I have also referenced the Troy Grady series and it has been a great help.

I have to admit, I can't really picture this "pivoting action" you and Doc Bop are writing about. Could one of you elaborate?

Just take one of your arpeggios like a Maj7 that you'd play in order low to high 1, 3, 5, 7 . Now take the 1 and play it up an octave, then drop down and play the 3, 5, and 7.

I wonder if sax players do this because they have less range to play with?

You can also it with scales - move up an octave say... So you go 1 7 6 5 4 3 2 1, but you take the 7 up an octave and descend from there, so get a jump of a major seventh and then descend stepwise for the rest of the phrase. Then practise it with other notes. (Must practise that one more actually.)

Good ways of making scales and arps sound more like language...

[AlsoRan]

Just take one of your arpeggios like a Maj7 that you'd play in order low to high 1, 3, 5, 7 . Now take the 1 and play it up an octave, then drop down and play the 3, 5, and 7.

Thanks. I understand the concept now and have seen it used on fast runs.

[docbop]

Thanks. I understand the concept now and have seen it used on fast runs.

I like the sound, easy to add approach notes or neighbor tones to make them more Bop-ish and they flow real nice into the upper color tones. Lately working on added a few diminished notes (ala BH) to add some V-I sound to my lines.

[Robertkoa]

I think it will become more common in the next 20 years for Guitarists to be as fluid and accurate as Violinists and Horn Players.

The " norm" is getting higher gradually.

Doesn't seem to create better Grooves or Music...so far.

[christianm77]

I think it will become more common in the next 20 years for Guitarists to be as fluid and accurate as Violinists and Horn Players.

The " norm" is getting higher gradually.

Doesn't seem to create better Grooves or Music...so far.

Quite.

TBH I think there is a trade off. Mastering the technical aspects of the instrument to such a high degree can come at a high price.

You pick your battles.

[Irez87]

Besides Johnny Smith and Chuck Wayne, I have yet to come across a guitarist who plays double time lines with the same fluidity and fullness as the horn players that I adore (Cannonball is at the top of that list).

The whole movement of "hammer-on" playing sounds great with light distortion, but I like the sound of notes that are picked and fully articulated. The more traditional double time on guitar stuff sounds extremely percussive to my ears. I am getting more double time under my fingers, but I am a tone fanatic. So it seems like there is a trade off there.

Benson technique seemed like a middle ground, but I actually dislike the sound the plectrum produces with that technique. My model is Johnny Smith for tone, and he doesn't approach the string like Benson, and he was one of the quickest gunslingers out there for quite some time.

Johnny Smith's tone was tops... Seems like his model has been completely ignored. People either go the Early bop sound of Tal Farlow mixed with Kessel (I like the later more), the CC/ T-bone sound (I think Hep falls into that, he pulls it off whereas many other guitarists fail), the Jim Hallians (I am trying to leave this camp of players, as most of them don't understand Hall's tonal concept. He didn't play with THAT much bass... ahem... Pat Metheny... cough, cough. I get really pissed off when people compare me to Pat Metheny. I have nothing against the guy... he's pompous just like most musicians... but I just don't like his tone--at all!) and the modern post Rosenwinkel sound.

Where's the love for Johnny Smith? I still gotta read his biography, I got it a month ago.

RE: pivots, are you talking about octave displacement? I studied a lot of Segovia and Johnny Smith fingerings to get the shifts needed to make those displacements sound more natural and full toned. I forgot who said it, but a musician said that lines with a wider range give the illusion of more melodic substance. Displacement helps that, but doing those lines in double time fashion is quite tricky indeed. Doable, just tricky.

[christianm77]

Besides Johnny Smith and Chuck Wayne, I have yet to come across a guitarist who plays double time lines with the same fluidity and fullness as the horn players that I adore (Cannonball is at the top of that list).

The whole movement of "hammer-on" playing sounds great with light distortion, but I like the sound of notes that are picked and fully articulated. The more traditional double time on guitar stuff sounds extremely percussive to my ears. I am getting more double time under my fingers, but I am a tone fanatic. So it seems like there is a trade off there.

Benson technique seemed like a middle ground, but I actually dislike the sound the plectrum produces with that technique. My model is Johnny Smith for tone, and he doesn't approach the string like Benson, and he was one of the quickest gunslingers out there for quite some time.

Johnny Smith's tone was tops... Seems like his model has been completely ignored. People either go the Early bop sound of Tal Farlow mixed with Kessel (I like the later more), the CC/ T-bone sound (I think Hep falls into that, he pulls it off whereas many other guitarists fail), the Jim Hallians (I am trying to leave this camp of players, as most of them don't understand Hall's tonal concept. He didn't play with THAT much bass... ahem... Pat Metheny... cough, cough. I get really pissed off when people compare me to Pat Metheny. I have nothing against the guy... he's pompous just like most musicians... but I just don't like his tone--at all!) and the modern post Rosenwinkel sound.

Where's the love for Johnny Smith? I still gotta read his biography, I got it a month ago.

RE: pivots, are you talking about octave displacement? I studied a lot of Segovia and Johnny Smith fingerings to get the shifts needed to make those displacements sound more natural and full toned. I forgot who said it, but a musician said that lines with a wider range give the illusion of more melodic substance. Displacement helps that, but doing those lines in double time fashion is quite tricky indeed. Doable, just tricky.

I think Lage Lund gets a great sound and can certainly handle double time. A lot of economy/sweep... It's easy to lump him into the 'post-Rosenwinkel' camp, but I just think he's developing what Jimmy Rainey started....

Early Pat Metheny sounds great to me. I love his tone on Bright Size Life.

I'm shying away a bit from the CC/Barney Kessel vibe. It works for some stuff, but like you say at a certain point you get the machine gun effect coming in. Not my cup of tea. And I agree about Benson's tone. It's his vibe, and sounds great, but I don't want to sound like that, but Adam Rogers manages to get a totally different tone using the same technique. I also like Sheryl Bailey's sound - I think edge picking is a big deal here.

Johnny Smith is undeniably great, just haven't got into him yet for some reason.

Jim Hall's tone is pretty 'nutty' to my ears. Certainly NOT rolled off, as many seem to think. He used the acoustic sound of his instrument as much as the electric - I think when I saw him he may have had the guitar itself miked....

TBH tone is not something I *think* about too much. I just try to listen to it carefully, and aim for what I like. However that comes out is the way it comes out. It's a very personal thing....

[Reg]

Guitarist just don't generally have good technique on their instrument. Playing notes fast... is only as difficult as you have made it.

All the exercises being talked about... different patterns or use of octave displacement within patterns are just that exercises. I have no difficulty playing fast scalar lines or arpeggio style lines, and generally have as much technique as most other instruments. And when I play guitar oriented lines... guitar friendly, most other instruments have problems.

I mean most horns only have two and a half octaves of basic ranges, in their key. We generally have at least three octaves in most keys. You have two octaves in any position... what do you want.

The tone thing is a different subject. And you'll find that the tone you use when practicing is very different that when playing gigs. Even small venues...and really changes with bigger venues or when your playing within an ensemble.... having to blend in and not take up too much space.

I play most instruments... just not well. I play guitar well... Fingerings are fingerings, try playing trombone.

So no... arpeggios fall or sit well on guitar, you always have at least two octaves plus..within any position.

The problems are usually technique... cowboy chord oriented fingerings are not designed to play arpeggios, and generally most guitarist play or use the five cowboy chord fingerings.

I started as classical guitarist... the fingerings also don't work well for performing jazz styles of fast arpeggios. They are designed for a different style of performance of a different style of music.

[Robertkoa]

What's a fight at the onset, when practiced with intention and persistence, can become a tool what you don't even think about. I play with a guy that plays with his fingers, and he doesn't even miss a rhythmic breath on the wider intervals.
Don't let the non-obvious keep you from exploring, or mastering a useful musical phrase.
Here's one example of someone who suggests a creative tool that can introduce wide interval sounds once you master them.
David

Good Tips - but I love his Tone - it's kind of an "Orchestral " Tone .
The Guitar looks like a Science Project but really pretty, peaceful Tones - much of course due to the Player.

Thumbs up for the Tips
Two thumbs up for the Beautiful Tone.

[Irez87]

I'm shying away a bit from the CC/Barney Kessel vibe. It works for some stuff, but like you say at a certain point you get the machine gun effect coming in. Not my cup of tea. And I agree about Benson's tone. It's his vibe, and sounds great, but I don't want to sound like that, but Adam Rogers manages to get a totally different tone using the same technique. I also like Sheryl Bailey's sound - I think edge picking is a big deal here.

Johnny Smith is undeniably great, just haven't got into him yet for some reason.

Jim Hall's tone is pretty 'nutty' to my ears. Certainly NOT rolled off, as many seem to think. He used the acoustic sound of his instrument as much as the electric - I think when I saw him he may have had the guitar itself miked....

TBH tone is not something I *think* about too much. I just try to listen to it carefully, and aim for what I like. However that comes out is the way it comes out. It's a very personal thing....

I love Adam Rogers's stuff, very funky and he can play play play. Lage Lund is great too, but I prefer his comping to his single line playing. I just don't like Pat Metheny, and that's fine. There shouldn't be a law that states "all guitarist must love Pat Metheny and grow their hair out like him" or something, right? Since tone is personal to me and I spend a lot of time sculpting and re-sculpting my tonal palette, I get peeved when my target tone is totally misread.

It's kinda like if you are going for a Henry Miller vibe as a writer and everyone compares you to Junot Diaz. Are they similar, yeah... maybe. They are both great writers and they can both be vulgar. But they aren't the same voice (I used to teach high school English. We could teach Diaz, but no one taught Henry Miller to my knowledge. Now I teach special education).

Reg, I realized what you are saying the other day when I was studying with this trumpet player. I had to change up my technique to maintain the tone and articulation that I wanted to mimic from his horn. I still learned a lot and I am finding that it is more about the music than it is the instrument. Next up... a violin player...

It's all an exciting journey with many twists and turns. I just don't want to be pigeon holed into a camp that I don't have any real citizenship within. See, I don't play with effects and I am not a huge fan of the whole slash chord, world music, mode of artistic communication. I really like collaborations, like Dhafer Youssef, Sebastian Giniaux, and Lionel Loueke. That stuff really grooves and I like what everyone does with the music. Pat's music doesn't do any of that for me, it leaves me cold in the same way that Chuck Wayne's playing leaves many people cold. That's okay, because that is what shapes my voice as a guitarist.

Maybe it's because I listen to a lot of Miles and Art Farmer, people equate my lines with sustained figures with Pat? Or maybe it is because I imply harmony instead of being explicit. Who knows. Thing is, I am still piecing together my identity as a musician. Pat Metheny is already developed, he doesn't need to fret over finding his voice. I need to fret so that I get hired to do more gigs. Jam sessions are great, but I wanna get back into the scene. Plus, extra cash would be nice. Living in NYC and being a teacher is livable, but... yeah, money can still be tight.

Sorry to take up space on the thread, but that comparison has really been bothering me. It's like all my listening research of LTD, Farmer, Louis Armstrong, all the guitarists I've listed, Bill Evans, and the 200 odd musicians I listen to on the daily in addition to my diet of bluegrass and classical are canceled out in one foul swoop with "oh, yeah, you sound just like Pat Metheny"

Whatever, no more. I've take up enough space and been selfish enough. Just glad that I can visit the forum again. I can't have these conversations out in the open, even with other musicians.

[sgcim]

I think others here, such as JZ, have mentioned that playing scalar runs at high tempos is a different animal from playing scalar runs fast when you compare the guitar to many other instruments.

Scales fall nicely on the neck and the intervals can be small but arpeggios, because of their wider intervals, require some string-skipping back and forth and other gymnastics that a Saxophone or trumpet does not have to fight with.

Is my statement correct? Comments, please...

Yup, arps present some problems in jazz playing that some people have devoted a lot of time towards solving.
Chuck Wayne, Joe Sgro and Johnny Smith seemed to have spent their whole careers developing solutions to playing arps. Any solution would have to contain some aspect of their approaches.

I like the articulation of each note in an arp being picked (like a pianist would), but it's too difficult to do this at a burning tempo. The other solutions involve sweep picking, but that would usually mean that you have to crank up the bass tone on your amp or guitar, and that poses a compromise to the sound you produce, that many people don't care for in jazz guitarists.

[christianm77]

Yup, arps present some problems in jazz playing that some people have devoted a lot of time towards solving.
Chuck Wayne, Joe Sgro and Johnny Smith seemed to have spent their whole careers developing solutions to playing arps. Any solution would have to contain some aspect of their approaches.

I like the articulation of each note in an arp being picked (like a pianist would), but it's too difficult to do this at a burning tempo. The other solutions involve sweep picking, but that would usually mean that you have to crank up the bass tone on your amp or guitar, and that poses a compromise to the sound you produce, that many people don't care for in jazz guitarists.

No it doesn't - at least from my understanding of sweeping, which is basically economy picking...

George Benson, Joe Pass, Charlie Christian, Jimmy Raney, Django, Adam Rogers, Lage Lund and many many others (including Chuck Wayne!) all use sweep/economy picking to some extent without it sounding in any way trebly or weak.

The problem is that most guitarists learn to sweep very lightly because they start as electric shred players. This produces a somewhat disconnected sound that to me sounds like 'and I now I shall play an arpeggio.' I suspect this might be because a lot of rock players operate via a checklist of 'stunts' they can perform rather than an integrated technique that allows them to play anything they like.

The more technically integrated rock consecutive pickers don't sound disconnected either. Eric Johnson is a case in point.

Integrated consecutive picking styles have been a part of jazz since the earliest days.

But you are right to say that dialling down the treble sounds like pants.

[rcpj]

I like the articulation of each note in an arp being picked (like a pianist would), but it's too difficult to do this at a burning tempo..

If you play fingerstyle with PIMA (and with good technique), speed with good articulation and tone is with arpeggios is not a problem..and is in fact easier than with a pick..furthermore , string skipping and wide intervals within the arpeggio are simple to execute as the individual fingers are naturally queued above the strings..good left hand release of notes synchronised with this yields nice, full bodied piano like articulated arts..

[sgcim]

No it doesn't - at least from my understanding of sweeping, which is basically economy picking...

George Benson, Joe Pass, Charlie Christian, Jimmy Raney, Django, Adam Rogers, Lage Lund and many many others (including Chuck Wayne!) all use sweep/economy picking to some extent without it sounding in any way trebly or weak.

The problem is that most guitarists learn to sweep very lightly because they start as electric shred players. This produces a somewhat disconnected sound that to me sounds like 'and I now I shall play an arpeggio.' I suspect this might be because a lot of rock players operate via a checklist of 'stunts' they can perform rather than an integrated technique that allows them to play anything they like.

The more technically integrated rock consecutive pickers don't sound disconnected either. Eric Johnson is a case in point.

Integrated consecutive picking styles have been a part of jazz since the earliest days.

But you are right to say that dialling down the treble sounds like pants.

Yea, I guess I was thinking of the Chuck Wayne school of sweep picking, which swept through NY years ago.
Everybody was studying with Wayne and dialing down the treble like he did.
Players like Pass, Raney and Jimmy Bruno managed to use sweep picking without sacrificing sound for speed.

[sgcim]

If you play fingerstyle with PIMA (and with good technique), speed with good articulation and tone is with arpeggios is not a problem..and is in fact easier than with a pick..furthermore , string skipping and wide intervals within the arpeggio are simple to execute as the individual fingers are naturally queued above the strings..good left hand release of notes synchronised with this yields nice, full bodied piano like articulated arts..

I agree that an incredible fingerstyle technique like Lenny Breau's (with thumb pick) is a great solution to this problem, but how many players of LB's ability have there been since LB's untimely death?

I wish I could play fingerstyle on that level, but the middle finger on my right hand was severed when I was 3 years old, and the doctors sewed it back on by sewing it through my fingertip, leaving it too sensitive to develop any type of superior fingerstyle technique.

Somehow, I managed to make it through my CG studies in college, but it wasn't easy.

[rcpj]

I agree that an incredible fingerstyle technique like Lenny Breau's (with thumb pick) is a great solution to this problem, but how many players of LB's ability have there been since LB's untimely death?

Yes, Lenny was a fabulous fingerstyle, one of my favorite players... but there have many fine players fingerstyle players since as well -Tuck Andress, Ted Greene and Lorne Lofsky to name but a few..and let's not forget Joe Pass - for me some of his best moments were pick-less..

I consider thumb/index and thumb-only players a la Wes to be fingerstyle players as well..so you also have guys like Kevin Eubanks, Jim Mullen and many others..

If you include hybrid players, then many others too...