Cultivating a Jazz Guitar Tone

**Irez87** · 09-04-2015, 07:52 AM

I find that I even have to change the angle my finger hits the string with more treble to get that full sound.

**citizenk74** · 09-04-2015, 08:28 AM

You've hit the nail squarely with the word intentional. I have spent the last couple of years completely revamping both my right and left hand approaches. Left hand: focus on eliminating unintentional string noise > attacking and releasing with perpendicularity, making no position shifts while in contact with the string. Grueling, but not impossible. Right hand: I have largely at this point forsaken plectra (still have a couple hundred on hand if I change my focus

) for a flesh-only manipulation of the string. Where this plucking action occurs is crucial of course; treble> bridge - bass < neck and so forth.
And yes - greater relative treble is less forgiving, for sure. With great clarity comes great sticking-out of the mix-ness. I frequently practice with a more cutting tone than I would actually perform with, just to practice controlling it. Everything sounds different in context.

Details, details! Practice with intention, when you can, play with abandon!

**Irez87** · 09-04-2015, 08:34 AM

Details, details, details. My thought's exactly, thanks for the response! And yes to the position shifts. They are a huge part of my playing (segovia style, I think) and I really have to concentrate when practicing to lift off BEFORE shifting to position and lifting off STRAIGHT of you will get string noise galore. It all makes for yummy tone, so it's worth it.

**Hep To The Jive** · 09-04-2015, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Irez87

Here's a good question for you woundie roundies. Hep really got me to clean up my sound. This alto player I play with in Brooklyn was like, did you change your amp? I was like, nah, it's just this magic kink I have in my patch chord...

Anyway, Hep got me to play with a little more treble and it cuts through the mix so much better and doesn't sound boxy anymore (thank you!). I may try and get more trebly, as the Eastman can be very bright, I have roundies, and the bone bridge thing.

Okay, sorry for being long winded, here's the question:

Do you find that the way you approach the string with your fretting hand is different with more treble than with less? I notice a lot more string noise and fret squeak with more treble. I have to be super careful and intentional as I up the treble, especially on the high E string.

Be careful with treble, Prof. Carillo might track you down and take away your college degree

I'm glad I could be a help in the tone department, I'm def. not a dark tone guy.. I think the tone I'm going for easier to achieve with some kind of single coil on hollowbody type guitar, or at least low/med output humbucker. My Guild with P90 is just perfect, but...

Imagine that, I'm back to flats, TI 12's on it now!! Flats + P90 + dirt on the amp= fantastic jump blues tone, and the type of jazz I play is not far from it. Basically flats just add right amount of "thunk" that I couldn't get with round nickel. It's a keeper!

**Irez87** · 09-04-2015, 03:05 PM

I would try flats again, but I love the volume I get acoustically with the rounds and I typically practice plugged and un plugged. You joined the dark side, now I don't wanna ever play together... He, he, just kidden. Carillo, shite... I thought I saw him at the Flushing Town Hall session and I froze. Scarred me for sure. You should come back, Keith was there on Wednesday, meng!

**Hep To The Jive** · 09-04-2015, 03:33 PM

I don't see that much volume loss, and it's a misconception- flats don't equal dark. Not with P90 anyway. I still have plenty of treble, but the tone is more percussive. "Thunk", ya know... Oh, and TI are the only one I use, they are nickel wound too. I stay away from Chromes, those are awful, I wouldn't put them on a broken neck Chibson.

**Irez87** · 09-04-2015, 04:09 PM

Is it thunk or thuck... Like, thuck you your with thunky thuck. Nah, all gewd. I'd be excited to hear you with the TI's. I thought the Swing set sounded a little dead, but it's in tha fingas too. But not Terezza. I dunno if you've noticed my posts about pianists who play 24 choruses at a jam and than vibe ya for bringing a small amp. We still gotta play together, you should come up to meet the brooklyn jazz collective (that's what we came up with) and play with us.

**Hep To The Jive** · 09-04-2015, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by Irez87

Is it thunk or thuck... Like, thuck you your with thunky thuck. Nah, all gewd. I'd be excited to hear you with the TI's. I thought the Swing set sounded a little dead, but it's in tha fingas too. But not Terezza. I dunno if you've noticed my posts about pianists who play 24 choruses at a jam and than vibe ya for bringing a small amp. We still gotta play together, you should come up to meet the brooklyn jazz collective (that's what we came up with) and play with us.

I will man, i'll find time... And tell that sax guy Andrew to send me the notes from Barry's workshop already, goddam it! Only because he promised, he did! It's ok, though, I'm not being serious...

Yes TI's sounds a lil dead, that means you will sound deadly on the guitar! See, it's all been sussed out!

**Vladan** · 09-07-2015, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by petestorz

I don't know why I never thought of doing something like this. When Bireli changes pickups and starts playing in a totally new voice. Genius. Different tone = different lines = different personality almost. Love it!

"Bireli Lagrene @ North Sea Jazz - "Blues en Mineur"

IMO, this is kind of stuff is sending a message to music loving people: If you thought Jazz was kind of O.K., from now on you will surely hate it.
At the same time various guitarists might receive quite a different message, about whatever is of their interest.

Nothing personal, but I was about to puke, so had to throw it out. Nothing against Bireli Lagrene either, he's one superb player.

**christianm77** · 09-07-2015, 09:04 AM

Nice thread! I really like watching players and seeing how they physically play.

For me, tone is always something I am aiming to refine. My acoustic jazz guitar tone is always under development, for example. I don't hit the strings as hard as I used to and have changed the way I pick and the angle of the pick. I've changed pick material and type more times than I can remember (at the moment it's stock 3mm Big Stubbys, after ages of using fancy expensive stone picks, Wegens, bone picks and so on...) The aim here is to try and get a really penetrating tone with a lot of upper mid cut - not necessarily much bass. I frequently play without amplification so this is important.

My guitar is also very important - it's a loud instrument. My strings have actually got lighter as well. It's interesting to see how other guitarists are approaching the same problems.

Electric - I've been working on this a lot. Again the physical considerations are considerable. I find myself now playing in a very different way on electric to acoustic, but the aims are different. I want a warmer, more even sound with plenty of treble but not too much 'click' at the start of notes. My ideal would be to be able to play a Telecaster on bridge pickup and eliminate the twang on the sound. Bill Frisell is able to do this. He always sounds like Bill, on any box.

I don't like having a separate electric and acoustic sound though. As much as I admire Birelli I am keen to avoid the tendency to play in different voices. I think it's a good thing to develop as it hones your ear, but it's not where I want to go as a player. In a way Birelli's problem is that he is almost too capable - he can do practically anything in music. Not just guitar. He's one of the most musical people on the planet. He will always be the guy on the Gypsy Project for me though :-)

Anyway, I hope my ramblings are of interest. I think discussions of tone often focus too much on gear. I know it's a boring old cliche but the best players sound like them on any instrument.

As a related point, my missus pointed out that really good pianists have their own sound on the piano. This is incredible when you think about it - they could be playing a different piano every night. The piano mechanism is much more removed physically from the player than the immediacy of playing a guitar. But Bill Evans or Barry Harris always sound like themselves no matter what. How does Barry get that same dark sound on every piano? It's like magic.

When you think about it that way, cultivating your own distinctive sound on different guitars and amps ought to be a doddle.

**christianm77** · 09-07-2015, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by Irez87

That might go under another thread... gear... just kidden, hell if I care! Yeah, the AER 60 is beautifull but playing 900 for an amp takes a dent, ya knows? I play out of a DV Mark and I bring it to every gig and playing opportunity. My Eastman becomes a howling monster if I plug into a tube or anything else. A shame, because she sings through the AER and the Mark. You just gotta rebalance with the DV, hell of a lot of bass (they make bass amps, so it makes sense) But, after the AER, this amp is the closest I've gotten to replicating that beautiful woody sound you get from the Eastmans

An AER is money in the bank. Seriously, those things keep their value pretty well because no one every sells them. They are also legendarily reliable. I have an Alpha, which is fine, although I am considering getting a Compact 60 now I have a car... It's nice to be able to tote my gear easily on public transport though.

I got it because it has a proven track record with players for almost 20 years. There are better sounding amps, there are lighter amps, but there these things are ubiquitous for a reason.

I've learned the hard way to invest in industry standard equipment. Dead boring. I have too much cheap and now useless crap taking up space in my apartment. But if the DV Mark works for you great. I've been impressed with Mark Bass stuff generally. The bass amps sound wicked for jazz guitar too.

**christianm77** · 09-07-2015, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Irez87

I will get a better picture up, this was taken to help make a custom gemstone pick. That white you see is the bone, the tone screws go right through the bone. So the tone goes string --> bone --> metal --> to a big ebony base plate that is fit perfectly to the top (the stock bridge had gaps). Some on here might even call me crazy, but I love the sound I get with that guitar.

Interesting. I see you have the Zoller on your guitar. How do you find this pickup? I've found it pretty bright.

I was playing, gemstone pick --> .14 roundwound TI's --> Zoller --> AER for about a year (sound familiar?). I found it good for getting a Barney Kessel/Tal Farlow tone especially with a mix of the guitar body tone with the amp, but it started to drift away from it. In particular, on loud gigs the sound could get a bit strident. It was a lovely sound for quieter stuff though.

I was using a GJ right hand on this guitar.

So now I use a different guitar - plastic pick, .12 flats, a stock Ibanez archtop pickup or a (telecaster with rounds) and a Fender Amp, with an anchored right hand and alternate picking. This is the sound I like now, much more modern, but 'stable' at loud volumes.

**Irez87** · 09-07-2015, 09:33 AM

I feel the same way when I hear people talk about indie rock or fine wine. But tone, for me, is a personal thing that the audience doesn't have to know about. All they need to know is that it's gonna sound good and they are gonna be tapping their feet by the end of the night (I hope). But, I hear ya.

I was thinking about getting an armrest for my Eastman 803

1. It's my main axe (and I love it to pieces)

2. I sweat a lot (thin finish and thin top wood. Although the wear on an old 335 looks cool, I think that would result in the wood deteriorating over the long haul with my guitar.

3. It would give me even more acoustic control

4. It would raise my right arm into a more preferable position. I float and rotate through the forearm, so arm height off the top of the guitar is very important.

Thoughts? Does anyone else have an armrest on their archie? I started the thread, so I don't care if it goes a little off topic here and there. Just let it go back to tone at the end. Glad you guys are enjoying discussing tone as much as I enjoy working on it!

**mr. beaumont** · 09-07-2015, 09:33 AM

I'm figuring out more and more that all the truly personal aspects of tone come from the hands, particularly how the note is fretted, if any vibrato is applied (don't think jazz guitar players use vibrato? Wrong!) And how the note is struck. And the most important thing in developing a personal tone is consistency.

I'm not a great player, but i do pride myself in my ability to not let gear play me...aand because of that, i can sound good and "like me" with a tele and a lunchbox, a semi hollow and a princeton, or an archtop and a polytone.

**Irez87** · 09-07-2015, 09:34 AM

I would get a John Pearse. The jumbo seems to fit the body, and the rosewood would match the tone knobs (stupid, but I like the look of my axe aesthetically as well).

**Irez87** · 09-07-2015, 09:36 AM

I sound similar on my classical guitar (pick style) to my archtop. The tone is DEFINITELY in the hands, how you fret, and approach the stings with the right hand. Look at the list for acoustic tone production at the top of the thread. What you can control is a lot longer than what you can buy to affect your tone.

**Irez87** · 09-07-2015, 09:43 AM

The Zoller is bright and my guitar is bright. Once again, under Hep's guidance, I am finally unlocking the brightness of the guitar. When I play louder, I roll off the treble just a wee bit. Someone on this thread recommended practicing with the amp all the way treble to practice controling the tone under these settings. I am gonna try that today. I love that Tal Farlow, Barney Kessel, Howard Alden tone. Johnny Smith is also bright and a little twangy (although his tone is ridiculously bell like as well. It's an odd but lovely. It's all about how you control the string with your fretting hand. You REALLY gotta worried about string noise, but the brighter sound cuts tthrough the mix so much easier. Therefore, I don't have to play as loud (I hate playing loud).

**Irez87** · 09-07-2015, 09:44 AM

Add that to playing Pro Steel D'addario's (13/12 hybrid set) and the guitar can be bright like a freaking sun on a clear day. But I am really starting to love that sound.

**Irez87** · 09-07-2015, 09:45 AM

Roundies, for those of you keeping track.

**Irez87** · 09-07-2015, 09:46 AM

The gemstone adds a little bass, acoustically, and tappers off the treble. If I played with plastic it would blindingly bright. Other people who've played my guitar notice this.

**Irez87** · 09-07-2015, 09:48 AM

Man, I get excited, post real quick, and my grammar goes straight to hell

**Irez87** · 09-07-2015, 09:50 AM

Chris, I could send you how it sounds acoustically and amped. PM me and I'll send you a listen.

**christianm77** · 09-07-2015, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

The question is, as primarily electric player (archtop or otherwise, doesnt matter), do you have to practice with an amp to cultivate your tone? Is practicing unplugged a bad habit?

A follow up question is ... It's a different touch needed for electric guitar, much more softer than if you play an acoustic. Well, it's rather statement, but anybody thinks so? Just telling from my experience of playing Gypsy jazz and jazz on electric guitar. I cant use the same touch on both. Especially with some amps, solid state, where if you dig harder, you'll get awful harsh clipping tone.

Speaking of solid state, yes, ZT Lunchbox rules! I add plate reverb pedal, and work master and gain controls to get me some dirt, because I hate sterile clean tones of solid state amps! Then, I can control the tone and go from cleanish rhythm to dirty lead by just changing a pick attack. ZT allows me to do that, it reacts like a tube amp. Brilliant! Sometimes I add Blue Note preamp, if I have to play at very low volume. Just to make sure it doesnt sound too clean. I love it- dirty, mean, and mighty unclean, thats the tone for me!

I have found ZT lunchbox amps (which I used for around three years) to have issues with build quality and reliability, personally. The speaker in particular has failed several times on these amps - although I did use them on a few hundred gigs. The input jack also had some issues and they are a pain in the bum for engineers to repair - not designed for maintenance. Swapping an input jack should be an easy job - one I could do. Just saying. They are cheap things, but they were all I could afford for a whle.

But they are so very handy. TBH I never got a sound I truly liked out of them with humbuckers, but I know a few guys who are happy with them. For me the ZT always loved single coils, I always got a great blues tone out of my strat. I'd love to try it with my tele, but it's kind of busted up now, the speaker rattles and I tried swapping it out with a new one from the (very helpful) distributors to no avail :-(

With a lightweight cab these things can get biblically loud.

**mr. beaumont** · 09-07-2015, 10:47 AM

I think they've addressed some of those known issues, too.

I've had mine 6 years, it's spent the last three in a high school band room...if it can survive that...

**christianm77** · 09-07-2015, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I think they've addressed some of those known issues, too.

I've had mine 6 years, it's spent the last three in a high school band room...if it can survive that...

I bought mine about 6 years ago. I also bought the Lunchbox Acoustic, which was slightly more durable I think, but not half as good as the electric version.

I must emphasise I gigged the living cr*p out of the ZT. Given the price point I think it would be unrealistic to expect much more out of it. I can't bring myself to get rid of the little fella, and he still sounds good with a cab. Probably good to keep it in the car in case the Princeton has a valve issue, come to think of it, although it is too powerful for the speaker in PRRI and I want to be careful not to blow it.