Troy Grady - Cracking the Code

[vintagelove]

Hey, Irez87 - wow thanks for asking him about this stuff! The videos are great



Thanks again for looking at it - I would not have caught any of that. I tend to pick and slur alot which is probably why you see alot of up picks. I tried picking as normally for me as possible in the video.

I do know that at medium-slower tempos I will do deliberate things to slow down my attack - angling the pick differently or playing off the edge/side - it gives a little more resistance kind of like playing with the thumb. It makes it feel a little behind the beat and avoid rushy sounding phrases at those tempos - in the vid I was just trying to play normal but maybe I was doing some of that on accident?

Troy Grady points out in the video about Steve Morse that a wide travel of the pick is necessary to avoid string-hops so maybe its a good thing?

I'm getting my picking dialed in more the last year - tempos around 300 BPM seem a lot slower than they used to. Your observation about the feel changing when I go faster is very interesting and spot-on - I'm going to spend some time thinking about that. I feel my double-timing isn't integrated well into the regular lines. I don't feel my wrist tighten-up but I do feel it change orientation when double-timing.

I guess overall I think my picking and articulation sounds okay but I'm just frustrated by my current limitations within this picking style.

Hello, looking at your videos I don't really see a "problem". You were able to play the lines at the tempos you wanted. You could waste a lot of time trying to find a problem that doesn't exist. In the thread "one way to hold a pick" I posted a few videos. Long story short I posted videos of the extreme limits of picking. The truth is it matters how many notes per string you are picking. In actual improvisation, your likely mixing the number of notes per string. The top of that limit is 16ths around 170 bpm (to put it in perspective yngwie plays in the high 160's) any faster generally sounds terrible. You are already at 150. You are near the top of the range that is even possible.

I think the "problem" is your unhappy with the VOCABULARY at those higher tempos. It really doesn't have a lot to do with the mechanics of your picking. The unfortunate truth is some vocabulary doesn't work on the guitar at those tempos. I would suggest developing vocabulary designed to work at those higher tempos, that way when you need it, you have it.

If you really want to work on your picking in the thread I mentioned I posted a very effective excercise that I guarantee will give you better results than staring at your hand looking for the problem.

The music will always tell you if your doing it right or wrong. Putting in the work is all it takes, and that's the part most folks don't want to hear.

Nice playing btw!!!

[EDS]

Hello, looking at your videos I don't really see a "problem". You were able to play the lines at the tempos you wanted. You could waste a lot of time trying to find a problem that doesn't exist. In the thread "one way to hold a pick" I posted a few videos. Long story short I posted videos of the extreme limits of picking. The truth is it matters how many notes per string you are picking. In actual improvisation, your likely mixing the number of notes per string. The top of that limit is 16ths around 170 bpm (to put it in perspective yngwie plays in the high 160's) any faster generally sounds terrible. You are already at 150. You are near the top of the range that is even possible.

I think the "problem" is your unhappy with the VOCABULARY at those higher tempos. It really doesn't have a lot to do with the mechanics of your picking. The unfortunate truth is some vocabulary doesn't work on the guitar at those tempos. I would suggest developing vocabulary designed to work at those higher tempos, that way when you need it, you have it.

If you really want to work on your picking in the thread I mentioned I posted a very effective excercise that I guarantee will give you better results than staring at your hand looking for the problem.

The music will always tell you if your doing it right or wrong. Putting in the work is all it takes, and that's the part most folks don't want to hear.

Nice playing btw!!!

Thanks for the suggestions, I will look into that thread. My main unhappiness relates to the challenges of doing lines across the strings more, not linear stuff. I agree, vocabulary changes based on tempo, so that's a good reminder for me!

Is this the exercise you are referring to?

"Imo the best bang for the buck picking excercise is a simple three note per string e567 a567"


I also want to apologize to everyone, I didn't mean to turn this thread into a thread about me, but thanks everyone for the discussion.

[vintagelove]

Thanks for the suggestions, I will look into that thread. My main unhappiness relates to the challenges of doing lines across the strings more, not linear stuff. I agree, vocabulary changes based on tempo, so that's a good reminder for me!

Is this the exercise you are referring to?

"Imo the best bang for the buck picking excercise is a simple three note per string e567 a567"


I also want to apologize to everyone, I didn't mean to turn this thread into a thread about me, but thanks everyone for the discussion.

Yes sir, watch the videos in the thread, the last one posted goes through the excercise in detail.

[EDS]

Yes sir, watch the videos in the thread, the last one posted goes through the excercise in detail.

Cool Found it - I've practice 3 note per string for years, but this variation on that will still be beneficial. I do invent alot of my little exercises to deal with various string changes so I will add this to the arsenal!

[Irez87]

Chris77 also mentioned feeling double time in 6/8 ala Mike Longo. I am experimenting with it and it helps get the flow and accents in the right place. Tricky as all hell, though (for me).

[Reg]

I know this is a cracking the code thing ... but this is a jazz forum... and guys like Bruce, while great player.... is not a jazz players and doesn't use jazz guitar technique... his approach to moving the left hand as compared to stretches might not really be the right direction etc... The fusion and rock playing approach is different, not saying good or bad. But something to think about.

[MarkRhodes]

I know this is a cracking the code thing ... but this is a jazz forum... and guys like Bruce, while great player.... is not a jazz players and doesn't use jazz guitar technique... his approach to moving the left hand as compared to stretches might not really be the right direction etc... The fusion and rock playing approach is different, not saying good or bad. But something to think about.

I think that's a fair point, Reg. But there is also word---news, rumor, whatever--that Troy is going to do a segment on Jimmy Bruno. Now that's jazz!

[Shadow of the Sun]

I think that's a fair point, Reg. But there is also word---news, rumor, whatever--that Troy is going to do a segment on Jimmy Bruno. Now that's jazz!

I believe he's also done work with Mike Stern as well.

EDIT: http://troygrady.com/codearchive/stern/

[Irez87]

I know this is a cracking the code thing ... but this is a jazz forum... and guys like Bruce, while great player.... is not a jazz players and doesn't use jazz guitar technique... his approach to moving the left hand as compared to stretches might not really be the right direction etc... The fusion and rock playing approach is different, not saying good or bad. But something to think about.

I subscribed to that thinking for a while, but I found an interesting tidbit in the George Van Eps Guitar Method that I worked through with James Chirillo -- the most traditional player that I ever studied with (he dressed up, even for our lessons)

I can't find a way to make the print screen work, but look at the 3rd page of the e-book

[Irez87]

Look at how GVE suspends the hand as well:

[Irez87]

[christianm77]

I know this is a cracking the code thing ... but this is a jazz forum... and guys like Bruce, while great player.... is not a jazz players and doesn't use jazz guitar technique... his approach to moving the left hand as compared to stretches might not really be the right direction etc... The fusion and rock playing approach is different, not saying good or bad. But something to think about.

I don't think there is any such thing as jazz guitar technique.

There is only technique. Either it works or it doesn't.

Jazz musicians may use a more acoustic style technique on the whole, and most now use a classical style left hand, but there are loads of very notable exceptions. A great many top contemporary players use a very electric/rock right hand, for example.

I haven't checked out Bruces stuff. I have found Troy's work directly applicable to what I do on guitar and acoustic or electric.

Playing the guitar is playing the guitar, and I have to do some RH muting sometimes on 'jazz' gigs, especially on a loud gig when Mr Archtop is really keen to start saying things on his own.

[christianm77]

I have this book. BTW I don't think GVE's suggestions on posture are very healthy for the back. You do get the most sound out of the guitar that way, though.

I'm compromising when I play acoustic archtop by using a Gitano guitar support. It's not so great getting the necessary space behind the back of the instrument though.

Picking wise it's basic rest stroke picking as in Gypsy Jazz. This requires downward pick slanting, floating wrist and obviously - down strokes on each new string with a rest stroke ('pick stop' as GVE nicely puts it).I believe this technique came form the plectrum banjo - can anyone confirm this? (Django learned plectrum banjo first - GVE's dad was a legendary 5-string play, though I'm sure he knew some plectrum banjo as well.)

Aside from the right hand muting/floating difference, this technique is similar to Yngwie's as related by Troy.

The GVE arpeggio picking exercises are very beautiful and great for developing a smooth legato on the instrument.

[Irez87]

for the left hand, I try to follow Segovia's shifting technique and save stretches for certain articulations. But I was talking about Bruce for picking, not left hand.

[Shadow of the Sun]

So, I've been working on playing with a rotational mainly-downward pickslanting, with a swap to upward pickslanting whenever I need to change strings on a downstroke for alternate picking.

I do this switch by twisting my right hand more prominently so that the pinkie knuckle moves towards parallel with my index finger knuckle, which pulls the pick out of the plane of the strings and allows me to quickly switch. Funnily enough, I think I developed this movement on my own before watching Troy's work- I was working on Gypsy Picking by Michael Horowitz and decided I wanted to be able to change strings with upstrokes sometimes as well, and letting the pick come to a stop on the string below it before moving to an upstroke was too slow so I "abbreviated" the movement into a switch to upward pickslanting.

Swanky.

[Reg]

Yea I guess anything will work... but the results are different. I play a lot of different gigs... when I'm covering a loud rockabilly gig on my tele... I still use thicker strings, but a lighter pick. Different right hand, muting and the guitar has different rebound. Different phrasing and articulating. Very different from playing trad. jazz gig on very different guitar, again the rebound and articulation from the guitar are different. Personally I use different guitar technique, a very conscious choice to help cover the different feels and licks etc...

The picking detail that I see most solid body and articulation players have trouble with is to much pick exposed. I don't believe when playing jazz boxes or more acoustic style guitars, one wants the pick rebound from flex as much. Creates a style of natural articulation from flex. Not really heard as much when playing solid bodies... generally. It does help with somewhat out of control power and speed.

But again... most problems happen when one is pushing their level of playing, and how much does that happen, I tend to push from playing gigs where I'm reading difficult charts... and don't know the tunes. And I'm hired to create energy when soloing... I'm play a fair this afternoon with a loud latin/brazilian four horn, three percussion and rhythm section. I'll original charts... haven't seen the charts. But the tempos will be burnin... I'm only bring my jazz box, because my later gig is jazz. I'm lazy... bring as little as possible to cover. My jazz technique will cover comping, montuno style much better than my louder guitars... but the solos won't rock as much, so I'll tremolo pick octaves, double and triple stops, Benson style for effect... and just burn, not very good sustain guitar, but will work. I'll try and get someones phone vid and post.

[Vladan]

Hello!

i would say from watching it you are using little or no consistent pick slant. My suggestion would be to experiment with using an exaggerated (45 degree) pick slant, and make firm contact with the next string on each downstroke. Be aware of pulling the up strokes away from the guitar soundboard somewhat.

The impetus for your downstrokes should come from arm weight, while your up strokes should come from wrist rotation.

give this a go practicing slow for a bit (classical gypsy technique) for a bit and when you think you have the feel, experiment with dialling it back a bit.

you should be doing very little on downstrokes. Up strokes are the recovery stroke and require some muscle use. Everything else is arm weight.

about two way pick slanting I have no idea :-) not my vibe

Why would he do that? Seems just fine as it is.

[EDS]

I subscribed to that thinking for a while, but I found an interesting tidbit in the George Van Eps Guitar Method that I worked through with James Chirillo -- the most traditional player that I ever studied with (he dressed up, even for our lessons)

I can't find a way to make the print screen work, but look at the 3rd page of the e-book

Is there a recording of George Van Eps playing with a pick? I have all his records but I don't believe there's any pick. I know he was recordings as a sideman earlier in his career. I guess I find him least likely source of how to use a pick , but I'm open minded!

[Vladan]

Re op question: he is "hopping (?)" strings when skipping, really skipping, playing two consecutive notes on nonadjacent strings. Seems skipping strings inflated as everything else did and now skipping is same as changing.

Re Troy Grady's work, it's still to provide a single piece of info previously unavailable. Hi res camera is fine, he's good player, but I think we are all angling our picks from a pure necessity, not because someone created a buzz word.

Also, the length of an arch, travel, has no influence on shallowness of the same. It can be as short as practical and still shallow as it ever was.

[Irez87]

Is there a recording of George Van Eps playing with a pick? I have all his records but I don't believe there's any pick. I know he was recordings as a sideman earlier in his career. I guess I find him least likely source of how to use a pick , but I'm open minded!

Check out his Jump Sessions Recordings, most are pick style. Most of his ideas are chordal, but it's interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZDSLQsOmNY

I think Steve Herberman told me this one was done plectrum style

[christianm77]

Yea I guess anything will work... but the results are different. I play a lot of different gigs... when I'm covering a loud rockabilly gig on my tele... I still use thicker strings, but a lighter pick. Different right hand, muting and the guitar has different rebound. Different phrasing and articulating. Very different from playing trad. jazz gig on very different guitar, again the rebound and articulation from the guitar are different. Personally I use different guitar technique, a very conscious choice to help cover the different feels and licks etc...

The picking detail that I see most solid body and articulation players have trouble with is to much pick exposed. I don't believe when playing jazz boxes or more acoustic style guitars, one wants the pick rebound from flex as much. Creates a style of natural articulation from flex. Not really heard as much when playing solid bodies... generally. It does help with somewhat out of control power and speed.

But again... most problems happen when one is pushing their level of playing, and how much does that happen, I tend to push from playing gigs where I'm reading difficult charts... and don't know the tunes. And I'm hired to create energy when soloing... I'm play a fair this afternoon with a loud latin/brazilian four horn, three percussion and rhythm section. I'll original charts... haven't seen the charts. But the tempos will be burnin... I'm only bring my jazz box, because my later gig is jazz. I'm lazy... bring as little as possible to cover. My jazz technique will cover comping, montuno style much better than my louder guitars... but the solos won't rock as much, so I'll tremolo pick octaves, double and triple stops, Benson style for effect... and just burn, not very good sustain guitar, but will work. I'll try and get someones phone vid and post.

Actually I've just bought a tele, actually, and yes I do have to play it differently to an archtop. But I like to play jazz on it. I wanted a guitar that could easily flip between jazz and pop/rock. I think the tele will do the job. I think it has .11 roundwounds on it ATM?

The rebound is definitely the thing, I completely understand. It's more of an acoustic feel. But Benson picking seems pretty natural with the tele... I think Benson picking might be the panacea actually...

But that's a different guitar not a style of music. After all, plenty of guys play straight ahead on a tele. I suppose if you put on heavier strings (flats say) that would make it behave more like an archtop.

And then there's my Ibanez laminate box which is somewhere in the middle...

To put it another way, imagine you were swapping been a tele and a flat top guitar playing bluegrass and country music. I suspect you would encounter similar differences.

[destinytot]

Is there a recording of George Van Eps playing with a pick? I have all his records but I don't believe there's any pick. I know he was recordings as a sideman earlier in his career.

Check out DINAH A Jazz Anthology MP3 Choose listen download MP3 tunes jazz artists

and you can see him in PETE KELLY'S BLUES

[destinytot]

Re Troy Grady's work, it's still to provide a single piece of info previously unavailable. Hi res camera is fine, he's good player, but I think we are all angling our picks from a pure necessity, not because someone created a buzz word.

You're right, of course - but, being a bit hard of thinking, I find his animated graphics make the concepts crystal clear.

[Vladan]

I subscribed to that thinking for a while, but I found an interesting tidbit in the George Van Eps Guitar Method that I worked through with James Chirillo -- the most traditional player that I ever studied with (he dressed up, even for our lessons)

I can't find a way to make the print screen work, but look at the 3rd page of the e-book

As far as I can tell, from what I can read in attached print screen, this is about strumming chords.

[christianm77]

Is there a recording of George Van Eps playing with a pick? I have all his records but I don't believe there's any pick. I know he was recordings as a sideman earlier in his career. I guess I find him least likely source of how to use a pick , but I'm open minded!

Check out his Jump Sessions Recordings, most are pick style. Most of his ideas are chordal, but it's interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZDSLQsOmNY

I think Steve Herberman told me this one was done plectrum style

All the stuff I've heard with a pick is chord solo style (and rhythm obviously). This is 1930's, before amplification so the only way to be heard in a band with drums and horns... . Great playing though....

This stuff is quite hard to track down, as he didn't record under his own name at this stage. There's website somewhere giving his early recordings.