Guitar Techniques for Picking and Fingerings

[MarkRhodes]

I was just commenting on your system, simply saying that, again, instead of concentrating on fingering patterns, diagrams and such, by learning the scales by heart (not necessarily all of them, for start just the ones I need for a particular song) and where the notes are on the WHOLE of the fingerboard, the fingerings are sorting out by itself, I am noticing a better improvement by that, and I am certainly enjoying the process more.

I'm glad what you're doing works for you. I get that you prefer not to work with diagrams. What I don't get is how you can know "where the notes are on the WHOLE of the fingerboard" without sensing a pattern. There is a pattern. There is a layout to the fingerboard that does not change.

[MarkRhodes]

By the way, I wrote to Bert Ligon (-a highly regarded jazz educator who also plays guitar) and asked how he advised his students to organize the fingerboard. I hope he responds; if so, I'll mention it here.

Heard back from Bert this morning:

>>>>Oh, a simple question!

This is a great question, and I am always trying to figure out the answer. Let me take some time and think about how to reply....<<<<<

When he gets back to me again, I'll post it here.

[aleksandar]

I'm glad what you're doing works for you. I get that you prefer not to work with diagrams. What I don't get is how you can know "where the notes are on the WHOLE of the fingerboard" without sensing a pattern. There is a pattern. There is a layout to the fingerboard that does not change.

Of course you sense a pattern. But, I don't see this:


https://www.google.com/search?q=guit...HWLIBJcQsAQIGw

I mean, I try not to. I guess it will take me some time to root out that habit that I got from years of seeing the guitar that way, only to forget or confuse the fingerings after few months of not playing, and not to mention that this collage approach - oh I'll take few notes from that position and few notes from that position - does not make any sense to me.

What is the pattern then, you ask. Well, you simply learn where the notes are on the fingerboard. It's not that hard, there are fret markers. But, now the pattern is in my brain. When I think of Eb major/C minor scale, I think in terms of Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C, D, Eb; I think in terms of half steps between the 3rd and 4th and 7th and 8th degree in major etc. and while playing I try to think ahead where is the note that I want to play - not where should now my finger move according to that diagram.

Then practicing triads, played on three strings, two or even one string, then voicing in fourths in given tonality... That kind of things.

Now, this will indeed be my last post on this thread, if I don't respond to somebody, don't get offended.

[Reg]

Great... best of luck

[MarkRhodes]

Of course you sense a pattern. But, I don't see this:.

For what it's worth, I don't see that either.

[vintagelove]

Fwiw, I teach beginning level brass, woodwinds, etc.

Every instrumentalist who is good is going to view their instrument not only with notes, but physically as well. On a piano, many keys share the same fingering, because they are physically Similar. Two octave scales, fingered a certain way because of the physical layout on the keys, etc.

A trumpet player knows the notes, but they also understand that each valve lowers the pitch a certain amount.

So, where the notes lay physically on an instrument, and the patterns are very important. It's the whole reason we organize them the way we do.

my 2 cents...

[MarkRhodes]

For what it's worth, I don't see that either.

I don't see chord shapes on the guitar neck either. At one time, I needed to know what a Major 7th chord looked like--how do you finger the danged thing? But now I don't think about it. If I need a C M7 or Eb M7, I just play it. I think Reg is talking about the whole fingerboard in this way: he just knows where everything is and this is how he learned it (and how someone else can learn it to.) Reg has always said that there are other ways to organize it and they work fine too.

I think his main point is that one needs to have SOME WAY of organizing the whole or else it won't be organized, period.

Growing up, I never thought about this. I learned pentatonic shapes and could move them around. Later, major scale shapes and the same thing. But I never had a sense of the "grid" Reg talks about. Back then, I didn't think I needed such a thing. (And if I was still playing only rock'n'roll and Chicago blues, I might not need it now.) But now---and for some time now---I've realized I needed a better "grip" on the whole neck layout thing and for me, this is it.

[destinytot]

I don't see chord shapes on the guitar neck either. At one time, I needed to know what a Major 7th chord looked like--how do you finger the danged thing? But now I don't think about it. If I need a C M7 or Eb M7, I just play it. I think Reg is talking about the whole fingerboard in this way: he just knows where everything is and this is how he learned it (and how someone else can learn it to.) Reg has always said that there are other ways to organize it and they work fine too.

I think his main point is that one needs to have SOME WAY of organizing the whole or else it won't be organized, period.

Growing up, I never thought about this. I learned pentatonic shapes and could move them around. Later, major scale shapes and the same thing. But I never had a sense of the "grid" Reg talks about. Back then, I didn't think I needed such a thing. (And if I was still playing only rock'n'roll and Chicago blues, I might not need it now.) But now---and for some time now---I've realized I needed a better "grip" on the whole neck layout thing and for me, this is it.

One big grid of seven modes suddenly makes total sense to me - exactly like chromatic solfège. I got to 'second' finger on my own (by thinking about what works and what doesn't), but the penny seems to have dropped. Keys don't matter except for relationships, movements and transitions - chromatic to Do.

[destinytot]

Repost of this gem of Reg's (by kind favour of Matt on Reg's 'live at the speed of jazz' thread). This belongs next to the 'Magnificent Seven Fingerings' - THANK YOU, Reg,

[matt.guitarteacher]

Here's the other one:

[MarkRhodes]

One big grid of seven modes suddenly makes total sense to me...

Yay! Good for you. I'm not quite there yet. It's still several grids for me: three positions (-triad shapes, as taught by Herb Ellis), five positions (Jimmy Bruno's five fingerings), and now seven. I don't get lost like I used to----so I'm happy about that.

[destinytot]

I can't count how many times it's been said - spelled out, or at least illustrated (in diagrams and such) - but it's suddenly made complete sense to me. And so does the concept of 'practising' - in order to have facility to execute ideas in ways that actually sound musical. This is just great, and I'm SO GRATEFUL - THANK YOU to all the helpful people here.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I can't count how many times it's been said - spelled out, or at least illustrated (in diagrams and such) - but it's suddenly made complete sense to me. And so does the concept of 'practising' - in order to have facility to execute ideas in ways that actually sound musical. This is just great, and I'm SO GRATEFUL - THANK YOU to all the helpful people here.

I like the Kurt Rosenwinkle video, if only for the sake of kind of validating it. It's kind of hard to state how profound this way of understanding the fretboard can be, before you fully understand what it is. I'm absolutely serious when I say that I wish I could go back and explain this to myself a few years ago. Simplifies things on so many levels.

And it's really just a lot of little things. Like the I, ii and V chords, all have the same extensions, and of course, they have a very visual and physical relationship to position when you start from the same finger . Melodic minor and its arpeggios is a pretty easy bolt-on when you can see the relationships more easily .

[MarkRhodes]

And it's really just a lot of little things. Like the I, ii and V chords, all have the same extensions, and of course, they have a very visual and physical relationship to position when you start from the same finger . Melodic minor and its arpeggios is a pretty easy bolt-on when you can see the relationships more easily .

I was thinking about that earlier today. Ghrahambop recently posted a pdf of guitar grids (8 rows of 8) and I thought I'd make one for Reg's fingerings so that they run across the page and you can look down a column for arpeggio, extended arp, scale. And while filling in the dots I thought, "these extensions repeat...." It is nifty.

[MarkRhodes]

POSITION (VERTICAL) PLAYING vs HORIZONTAL PLAYING


Lately I've done some daily work playing in positions, running through the "chordal scale" (grips and arps) in five positions. Today was Eb, so that would be EbM7 F- G- AbM7 Bb7 C- Dm7b5. I focus on the grips on the top four strings--they're useful for chord melody and comping (-and I just don't know them as well as I know 6432 and 5432 grips). That is vertical (or positional) playing. What Reg and Kurt are doing with their seven fingers is the epitome of horizontal playing---every chord is in a different position!

Does one a) integrate the two, b) alternate between the two, or c) eliminate one? (By 'eliminate' I don't mean never-ever use, but rather, when learning something new you only worry about learning it in the context of onr of those fingerings, not the other one too.) Or d) some other option I didn't mention? (if so, please mention it! ;o)

[Vladan]

I can't count how many times it's been said - spelled out, or at least illustrated (in diagrams and such) - but it's suddenly made complete sense to me.

Mike, could you please be more specific? What was not making sense, that does it now? You did not learn anything new, it's only your perception and understanding that has changed, but about what property/ quality in particular? You surely were aware of repeating nature of notes, scales, shapes ..., all on the (visual) grid strings and frets form.
So, what is "the thing" that downed on you?

My questions are sincere. I don't want to let something important pass by without me even noticing it.

[destinytot]

Mike, could you please be more specific? What was not making sense, that does it now? You did not learn anything new, it's only your perception and understanding that has changed, but about what property/ quality in particular? You surely were aware of repeating nature of notes, scales, shapes ..., all on the (visual) grid strings and frets form.
So, what is "the thing" that downed on you?

My questions are sincere. I don't want to let something important pass by without me even noticing it.

You're exactly right - my own perception and understanding (probably clouded by my own 'mental noise' to do with ingrained habit and peripheral matters such as picking or articulation) stopped me from actually seeing the fretboard the way I can see a keyboard.

Note names are obviously symbolic; chromatic solfège helps clear up for me the the fuzziness or ambiguity that seems inherent to the nature of the fretboard - and helps it become an advantage.

Difficult to express. If this isn't clear, I'll take another stab at it tomorrow. (Got another set to play - lucky me!)

PS If there's one thing that 'did it' for me. it's appreciating the role of the 2nd finger.

[MarkRhodes]

I have a question about triad stacks. (In the context of the 7 positions of G major presented here.) Reg, do you have specific fingerings you've found most useful for them?

If needed (not by Reg but by others): what is a 'triad stack'. It's like an arpeggio of triads. Take a C triad: C E G. If you make a triad with each note as a root, you have C (CEG), Em (EGB), G (GBD). They tend to alternate between major and minor forms.

If you want to see how they might lay out in for the I chord, ii chord, and V chord, it would be like this:

I (C): C Em G Bmb5 Dm F Am C. (Again, these are triads: C means C E G, G means G B F and so on. Each succeeding triad starts with the final two notes of the previous one.)

ii (Dm): Dm F Am C Em G Bmb5 Dm

V(G7): G Bmb5 Dm F Am C Em G

They alternate between major and minor with the exception of the vii being followed by a ii, two minors in a row.

It's a great and easy way to generate some motion. But as with most anything on guitar, there are lots of ways to finger these stacks. I learned them out of a Carol Kaye booklet and her fingerings are fine but I got to thinking, "Hhmm, what would Reg do?"

This runs beyond two octaves, so there's no playing it all in one position. But if one wants to play it all along the highest strings, you'd have to start near the nut to have room (unless you have a deep cutaway). Two positions (if one thinks in positions) seems to be the minimum needed.

[RobbJ]

Just joined this forum and I'm super happy I found this thread. Thanks for putting this together.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Just joined this forum and I'm super happy I found this thread. Thanks for putting this together.

Yeah, this thread has had a profound impact on my facility, knowledge and enjoyment of the instrument.

[RobbJ]

I've been playing with this exercise this afternoon and I'm thinking of changing my screen name to "FlyingPinky". This is good stuff, thanks for sharing.

[Reg]

Happy New Year to all

I'm going to post some technical material that could help guitarist develop better skills for performance in a Jazz style.

I've posted some of these before... but these are basic references, where you need to start from to be able play Jazz.

They're just the start, typ maj/min functional position fingerings. But before you move on to more material, HM. MM other scales and jazz harmonic common practice. You need these basic references, an organized system and approach to be able to play jazz on the guitar.

Don't get hung up on terms, scale, arpeggios, chords, chord tones, extensions etc... in the end they're all the same, the difference is how you choose to use the notes.

I'll post the next collection in a few days.

[Reg]

Here are the next...

[Reg]

The order should be...
1) Maj/Min scales all 7 positions
2) Maj/Min arpeggios
3) Maj/Min 7th chords argeggios
4) Maj7th chord... each degree
5) Min7th chord... each degree
6) Dom7th chord...each degree
7) Min7b5 chord... each degree
8) Maj triad ... each degree
9) Min triad ... each degree
10) Min b5 ... each degree
11) arpeggio embellishments ( one of the many applications of using techniques when performing)

I'll get into the differences between... technique and performance later.

[MarkRhodes]

Thanks, Reg. Time to update / organize my "REG files" folder.