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That's sort of what I meant when I said I think of slurring as a specific articulation rather than just a means of sounding the note. Sounds different than picking a note ... whether someone slurs or picks to get a particular sound or finds themselves with a particular sound because they slur or pick in a particular way --- still is an important part of a sound and a lot of guys are very careful about where they slur. Obviously after a point I'm sure it's second nature but only after they're quite conscious about it for quite a while.
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05-06-2015 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Richb
Just to be clear, you meant this in a negative way? I listened to little bit of the Martijn Van Iterson you mentioned, sounded great to me.
Some things are only possible when using these techniques, so if thats what you have to do to get the music in your head out, thats what you have to do.
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I reckon metheny can handle himself at picking much better than scofield. To me, scofield sounds like he needs to slur, whereas metheny sounds like he only does it for the sound.
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Scofield has admitted that he has great difficulty picking rapidly, and adopted the slurring technique to make up for it.
Maybe he should have done the world a favor and played another instrument that didn't require picking, IMHO, of course...
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Maybe not
He has done what 20 albums ? Since he played with Miles Davis
He might have had a technical difficulty to begin with but I think he has made up for it by now
Some of the stuff is straight ahead bebob
He has been a great inspiration to many by not sounding like everyone else, and he is still putting out interesting stuff
He also grooves alot more than Metheny
Last edited by vhollund; 05-06-2015 at 04:32 AM.
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Legato is a nice option to have for fast fluid lines.
Here's Tom Quayle:
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Ohhh handbags! Originally Posted by sgcim
Scofield has admitted that he has great difficulty picking rapidly, and adopted the slurring technique to make up for it.
Maybe he should have done the world a favor and played another instrument that didn't require picking, IMHO, of course...
Luckily he did choose an instrument that doesn't require much picking - the modern electric guitar ;-)
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It's not always easy to tell who slurs and where... Take Wes - legendary thumb upstroke (with a corn) or hammer ons - or both?
I don't think anyone knows for sure.
And while Pull off's have a very particular sound, hammer ons are not always easily distinguishable from a gentle pick attack. I have heard it said that Holdsworth does a lot more picking than you'd think....
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A friend and I attended a Greg Howe (a highly respected rock fusion guitarist) workshop at a local Guitar Center. The guy was all over the fretboard with great speed and technique. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
What struck me was his comment that he has gone more and more away from picking and instead, relies much more on legato lines. It was interesting watching his left hand while he spoke. A large part of the time it was moving, performing some sort of warm-up, legato exercise, I suppose.
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I think Wes is the best model for anyone who wants to play bebop on guitar. Metheny and Sco are great, but neither of them sound like they're playing traditional jazz language with traditional swing, imo. Both sound too modern to my ears, and don't really fit in naturally in an acoustic jazz combo context. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I like the classic sounds more. Originally Posted by christianm77
I think Wes is the guy who came up with the perfect model for bebop guitar. His articulations are far more hornlike than Metheny's, which is kind of idiosyncratic and bubbly, or Sco, which is too slurry. Benson is kind of an extension of Wes and bringing the pick upstrokes into it allowed him to nail the Parker double-time kind of feel.
Again, all imo. I try to approach a lot of stuff by thinking about how Wes would play it these days.
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Because Wes' thumb technique is such a big part of his sound and phrasing and the way he played in general, I also recommend Jimmy Raney for folks wanting to steal from a master with a technique that might more closely resemble their own.
As for Wes' upstroke...I've watched the videos available of him many times...and I'm only seeing it on chords and octaves.
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Obviously, Greg Howe and Tom Quayle are heavily influenced by one of the Masters of Legato electric guitar technique, Allan Holdsworth. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
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I was too young to have seen Wes in concert, but I've had good conversations with people who did. The consensus, according to John Abercrombie and Carmen Caramanica, as well as what I've been able to observe on video, is it's all downstrokes. In my experience, folks that are looking for some secret alternate picking upstroke from him don't pay enough attention to his left hand fingerings that make the thumb technique feasible. I agree with ECJ that Wes developed the perfect technique for bebop articulation, I think anyone who does a serious study of his lines will find it extremely rewarding, even if their ultimate goal is not to play with that particular style or sound.
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Originally Posted by paulkogut
I agree, but I've mistrusted every Wes Transcription I've ever seen- at least in terms of which positions he may have played in.... I have the same problem doing my own transcriptions, some of his quick lines can be worked out in so many different position options, but none of them ever sound as effortless as when he does it. His technique is just so darn idiosyncratic, it's almost impossible to adopt his approach, because we can't decipher it.
Then again, I suppose we can just concentrate on his videos where we can actually see him doing it! Hmmm, maybe that's the only way....?
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Originally Posted by GuyBoden
That is exactly the sound I have been preferring over the pick every note sound. Great example. Thanks for posting!!!
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Originally Posted by GuyBoden
For the curious, here is some of Greg Howe. I believe it was filmed during one of his clinics. (Note: I would not call it Jazz, per se.)
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Raney, IMHO, represents the closest thing we have to Bird on the guitar, Here he explains how he did it: Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Farlow was more cued in to Bud Powell, and used his sparse slurs to help execute a fast Powell-type line.
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I can alternate pick 3nps scales from mostly elbow at about 160 16th notes. But if you have to work full time it just seems to be too much hard work. Ive gone back to directional picking because its so much easier to me. Not strictly economy where you plan licks and always drag to the next string but a mixture of economy and inside picking. No matter how many notes per string or what the last stroke was you start a new string in the direction you move to get to the string. So of course it is about 2/3 economy. Its confusing at first but it becomes a habit quickly because it feels more comfortable than alternate to me. And its nice when you play really advanced things like Paganini's 5th caprice - I get confused sometimes like - should I alternate pick this part or sweep it? With directional you always change strings the same way no matter how many notes per string your playing. When you learn an Yngwie solo its easy to see where you should alternate and where you should sweep but with things like the 5th caprice or his 16th caprice its not always as obvious. There is not as much distinction between scale or arpeggio. I think thats the same way Jimmy Bruno picks. I found that on my own before there was an internet. 180 16th + and it dosent require as much practise.
Last edited by AndyPollow42; 05-06-2015 at 01:39 PM.
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Farlow was really into Charlie Christian and Lester Young
Miles Davis was also very into Lester
Everyone was i guess
Thanks for the Raney
Watching now
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@Vintage
When I see those fusion/rock guitarist i understand why you are sick of the sweeping
There are few guitarists in that style who can pull it off without sounding like "a ghost from the 80's looking for a song/host
One is the swedish guy from Freak Kitchen who is not only funny but also a genius
And
Matte Henderson
They just take the creativity to another level
I knew a bunch of guys who could sweep like gods forever in the 90s
But i don't remember anything they play and you couldn't tell one from the other
To me only Huff Landau and Lukather are the only ones still allowed to play 80'style solos
Ok I give you Holdsworth though i can't stand it
For anyone who are sick of their sweeping, try to listen to Atomic Mr Basie, or some live Sinatra with Quincy Jones Big Band
And incorporate those rythms/feelings into your playing and turn of the gain already
That rythm is what is missing in the sweeps
Its funny but I kindof think of sweeps and slurs as being effects around the rythmic content
It's like Reverb
You wouldnt play a song just with a long Reverb and sparse staccato notes
Its the sauce not the meat and patatoes
Even when Charlie Parker does it, it sounds like an effect and a "slur"
It's just a way to get from one beat/note to another that sounds cool as part of the rythmic phrasing
Some of the ornementation comes directly from European Folk Musik and There might aldo quite possibly be some Arab/North African influence too ofcourse
And traditional Jewish musik too which is often east european folk music
I can post some 9/8 with a million "slurs" from my homeland in scandinavia if it sparks interest
Here, on bag pipe :
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Glutton%29.wma
Last edited by vhollund; 05-06-2015 at 08:55 PM.
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Matte Henderson:
Freak Kitchen - Teargas Jazz:Last edited by vhollund; 05-08-2015 at 04:47 PM.
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I never really got into economy picking; for me, if I'm picking, it's mostly alternate, however I do sometimes use sweeps on just a few strings, but I don't really consider it economy picking. I tend to use a lot more legato than picking when I'm playing faster speeds. My fretting hand has always been a lot faster than my picking hand, and my style just sort of naturally evolved around that.
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Yeah, Tom Quayle is a fantastic player. Originally Posted by vintagelove
Here's an older video where he's playing some improv over Giant Steps on an acoustic.
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I agree. I do wish I had more slurring in my playing - and I love Wes. That said, I don't have recordings of him doing to many bebop heads. Happy to be corrected, I've mostly listened to Smokin' at the Half Note, Incredible Jazz Guitar etc... He does some of the blues heads - Au Privave, Billie's Bounce, but did he ever record a smoking Donna Lee or something like that? Originally Posted by ecj
TBH I'd take being able to play with more phrasing and feel in exchange for being able to play *everything*... I kind of made that some of trade off when I got into rest stroke picking (when you think about it Wes's style is a lot like rest stroke picking), although I can play most things....
That said, every note sounds picked here, and it's not a slow tempo. Never seen him up stroke on single notes though.... Charlie Christian had similar facility with picked downstrokes:
I think this deliberateness contributes to his relaxed feel and the sense of his 'sounding slow' when in fact he is really burning. The flip side, as Dave Cliff pointed out to me, his records tend to slow down rather than speed up.
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Well, yeah, not to get into petty labeling, but I don't consider Wes a "bebop" player...Wes is a bopper, hard bop, they call it...slower, bluesier, less busy in the heads...
Bebop is a very specific time and place to me...it's a small little snapshot of jazz that changed it forever.
As for "thumbed" or slurs, Wes' choice were very deliberate. I'm listening to "I'm Just a Lucky So and So" right now, a midtempo swinger, and he slurs all over the place. But sure appears he has the capacity to pick all of it, had he wanted to...Last edited by mr. beaumont; 05-07-2015 at 11:01 AM.
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