Alternate Picking at Fast Tempos

[jzucker]

rock guitarist tutorials don't help because the phrasing and articulation is totally different. If you listen to metheny, he can play ridiculous tempos but is articulating totally different from the rock guys.

I think it's important to listen to folks who can actually play and groove at faster tempos. Until you have broken through, you are just guessing at what's required.

I can tell you absolutely that you are wasting your time trying to play faster than you can actually comfortably play. It's not just a physical thing either. It's mental as well unless you're trying to mindlessly play scales. For actual improvising you should not be practicing tempos where you are flubbing or you will just get good at flubbing. It took me 20 years to learn this, unfortunately.

[mrcee]

I would say that Diz, Bird and 'Trane and almost any jazz musician of note had rhythm as a priority. It's been said that the guitar can provide more rhythmic drive than any other instrument. Even more than the drums which can function more as a time keeper. Think Freddie Green. Supposedly Charlie Christian at Minton's usually just comped as the stand tended to crowded with hopeful soloists. There's a cut from the Goodman small group recordings with Christian called Waiting For Benny where Christian blows some simple riffs and nobody except the drummer seems to have a clue what's happening until about a minute and 30 seconds into it when the combo, being the pros that they were, jump on the choo choo. Many people feel it's Cootie Williams' finest recorded solo.

[grahambop]

Ha!!! Busted!!! My limit is at 124!!! 4 I'm better than you are!
Wen I was at 122, I was better 2.

To say "I can play 1/16 at 150 bpm" is nonsense unless stated what is being played and for how long. Are we speaking of rehearsed or improvised?
Licks of 1, 2, 4 ... how many bars, or improvising for a length of a tune, mostly in 1/8 and trioles with occasional runs of 1/16,...? Or what?

Ha! OK I tried a bit harder this time - got up to 132 on my metronome, playing my usual bebop type lines. It is a bit of a strain to keep it going though.

But I'm not really bothered about speed yet. I'm more interested in playing good melodic lines which groove at a comfortable tempo. One day I'll work on speed a bit more.

Having said that, over the years my 'comfortable' tempo limit has gradually gone up without me consciously working on it.

[vintagelove]

I am curious, since I share your appreciation and enjoyment of fast Jazz. Do you like some of the Jazz Fusion that is out there? Or, do you just like to hear fast Bebop, Hard Bop, and other Jazz movements that can be at higher tempos?

For example, I really like this guy, and the Jamtrax site that has his instructional videos has got some guys that play at a high tempo. Yet, I find their music exciting as opposed to boring, as some fast guys can be IMHO.

I find that I break down around 125 bpm, 16th notes playing different scales in a vertical fashion unless I am regularly doing exercises, but I am back to pursuing high tempos (again) and have been as high as 138 bpm, but not completely with the control I desire.

Oh well. I could go on and on, but I believe people look to music to fulfill a certain need, and that need determines which genre or type you seek. I look to music not necessarily for beauty or to be moved almost to tears, as many do. I am laid back and have to handle a lot of business that has become routine. So, I look to music the same way I look to caffiene, I am looking for a thrill. Flying along with the beat on a wild musical ride gives me that thrill, if the note selection and rhythm fit my fancy.


Thanks.

Hello, the guy you posted is obviously a great player. "Fusion" is not my bag in particular, but it's great too.

I think coming from doing years of classical music, I prefer "natural" sounds. If I am being honest, I am not really too fond of distortion anymore. I am very particular about it, very few distorted sounds are pleasing to my ears anymore.

My 2 cents would be to closely examine the mechanics required for picking. There are several "obstacles" you have to learn how to address. Probably most notable is the "outside picking" concept I mentioned earlier. However, avoiding that "outside picking" is not going to cut it, at least for jazz. Personally, I start all my students off alternate picking, once they reach a reasonable speed on 3 notes per string (in other words they have overcome the hurdle of outside picking), I begin introducing them to other methods. However I do feel alternate picking needs to be the basis one builds upon. Again, ultimately if you want to play bebop, you need to be able to do it all

[Vladan]

@Grahambop

Ok, so it's 8 then.

[jzucker]

what is being lost here is that there are 2 factors here.

- The physical ability to play fast
- The ability to play musical at fast speeds

You can have great physical strength but it does not mean you will be a great athlete. So it is with playing fast. However, if you cannot physically play fast, you will not be able to play musical at fast speeds. However, there are plenty of guys who can play scales all over the fingerboard 10x faster than metheny or benson who can't play a 12 bar blues to save their life.

[Fidelcaster]

I admire Kreisberg's right hand technique. He generally uses strict alternate picking in order (I think) to get a more piano-like than horn-like sound (and phrasing?), to have superior control on dynamics and accentuation, and probably also because he does a lot of string skipping. He can alternate pick very fast, but always with a beautiful sound, unlike many shredders that not only play with machine-gun-like speed, but also with machine-gun-like tone and feel.

[jzucker]

kriesberg also slurs quite a bit and uses economy picking as well. Generally, there are no great jazz guitarists who strictly alternate pick. The guys that do have very unnatural phrasing IMO.

[GuyBoden]

rock guitarist tutorials don't help because the phrasing and articulation is totally different.

"phrasing and articulation is totally different"

Maybe, it depends on your personal style of playing. I think that in England, and probably Europe too, because Jazz is originally an American Music, younger musicians just don't have the historical connection and tradition, so maybe they don't have as many preconceptions concerning what is and what isn't Jazz. So, they'll mix Jazz, Rock, Pop, Classical or any other sounds they like.

Maybe, a lot of the younger so called "Jazz musicians" in the UK should really be labelled as "improvising musicians". I'm generalising, but I don't think they really care if you call their music Jazz or not, it's just the music they're playing at that moment.

Anyway, I'm not a Rock Guitar player, but I feel I've learned a lot from Rock Guitar tutorials, but we're all different. P.S. Classical Cello Tutorials are good too, interesting tuning.

[pamosmusic]

Ummmm that is wicked ^

[pamosmusic]

I might add that John Petruccis book "Rock Discipline" was a favorite of Kurt Rosenwinkel (according to legend) and has become a bit of a cult classic among jazz guitarists.

[sgcim]

I find that improvising at 336 with the metronome enables me to play more relaxed and creative at slower tempos.
Though it's taken me many years to build up to playing MUSICALLY at 336, I still don't play perfectly clean at that tempo.
However, I did two jazz gigs in the last two weeks, and thankfully nobody called anything at that tempo or above.
Though I use alt picking on most things except certain arp and intervallic things, I don't think about my technique at all on gigs, only the music.
One interesting question is whether it's more beneficial to practice at tempos 320 and above with just the metronome (where you're hearing the chords in your head) or doing the same thing using backing tracks.

[vintagelove]

I find that improvising at 336 with the metronome enables me to play more relaxed and creative at slower tempos.
Though it's taken me many years to build up to playing MUSICALLY at 336, I still don't play perfectly clean at that tempo.
However, I did two jazz gigs in the last two weeks, and thankfully nobody called anything at that tempo or above.
Though I use alt picking on most things except certain arp and intervallic things, I don't think about my technique at all on gigs, only the music.
One interesting question is whether it's more beneficial to practice at tempos 320 and above with just the metronome (where you're hearing the chords in your head) or doing the same thing using backing tracks.

I do find value in practicing a tune too fast (with the prerequisite that you must have a firm understanding and ability to play cleanly at high speeds), then when you back the bpm down to earth, it seems "slow" and feels more comfortable. It's also helpful incase a sax player calls a tune at 60,000,000 bpm.

[fumblefingers]

kriesberg also slurs quite a bit and uses economy picking as well. Generally, there are no great jazz guitarists who strictly alternate pick. The guys that do have very unnatural phrasing IMO.

Just curious, what do McLaughlin, Benson, and DiMeola do when burning? At some point my eye can't really distinguish the stroke.

[ecj]

Just curious, what do McLaughlin, Benson, and DiMeola do when burning? At some point my eye can't really distinguish the stroke.

McLaughlin and Di Meola are mostly alt-picking on their super fast licks. McLaughlin uses some economy when he does this particular string skipping lick, but most of it is alt-picked.

Benson uses something somewhat akin to the gypsy picking system of downstrokes on string changes. Lots of pull-offs to set up the right picking patterns, and a lot of slides.

[sgcim]

I might add that John Petruccis book "Rock Discipline" was a favorite of Kurt Rosenwinkel (according to legend) and has become a bit of a cult classic among jazz guitarists.

When I used to teach, students would tell me to listen to JP, and I liked his stuff, but I never looked at "Rock Discipline".
I looked at it yesterday, and was surprised to find that he's even more Alt picking oriented than Paul Gilbert.
Part of my daily practice session is ten minutes of PG exercises that work on the 'inside picking' problem that the OP is concerned with, and now that I've checked out JP's 'RD', I've already added some of JP's exercises to my practice routine. Pamosmusic's recommendation of RD is a good idea for the OP's concern with 3NPS playing.

If you're a relatively new jazz guitarist, I agree that overdoing the rock shredders' exercises can impede your ability to swing (which is what good jazz is all about IMHO), but if you've been playing only jazz for a long time (like I have) I don't think you're going to start shredding in a jazz solo all of a sudden; I still haven't played a PG lick in a jazz solo, yet...

I was surprised to learn that JP went to Berklee, and was very serious about studying jazz harmony, but he wound up hooking up with fellow prog fanatics.
i wonder if he ever played any jazz things. I've heard Gilbert, Govan and other shredder's play jazz, and they don't swing, but that's the whole point of the differentiation betwixt jazz and fusion; Jazz swings, Fusion funks.

[vhollund]

I don't use anything but alternate for fast things, and have no issue with it
I use hammer on and pull offs and sweeps but not the way you talk about
If i could I would though,
it gives a nice flow, if you can keep it tight

Be bob is all about rhythm phrasing for sure
But theres nothing wrong with studying technique

Alternate + some pull off /on s:

[ecj]

Benson uses very few slurs. It's all picking, with slurs only used VERY occasionally.

He uses pull offs like joe pass to set it up so that the pick is always ready to switch to the next string with a downstroke.

I wouldn't call it a slur.

[vhollund]

Interesting technique

[vintagelove]

FWIW to those interested, the mixing in slurs thing is something that happens naturally (after tons and tons of work). They are not "planning" these moves, it just becomes "intuitive".

Bebop heads, along with work on understanding picking mechanics will go a long way to develop this.

[vhollund]

It sounded like they had trained this specifically
But maybe the info didn't come from them selves, but just an analysis of their playing

Edit : read your added stuff in the OP
As you know, i want to look into it again and try to integrate the technique
As soon as things calm down a bit

[vhollund]

A slur can be hammer on or pull off or slides (?) it has a sound to it
You make it sound like if we use that technique to do some, otherwise impossible acrobatics, that its "worth less" ?
Picking all notes doesent always sound best

[christianm77]

At risk of boring everyone, the Troy Grady stuff on this is really helpful.

I'm a downward pick slanter. As such downward economy picking is optimised, and going the other way I prefer even notes on a string. Pull offs are a good work around. See Benson discussion re: slurs...

I can work the guitar quite fast but true improvisation at tempo is hard. Mostly what I play notes wise when improvising 8th notes is quite set at fast (280+) tempos, I think true flexibility is very difficult, though there may well be people whose brains work that fast.

[vintagelove]

Beg to disagree. Slurs need to be used in a specific place in the beat consistently and deliberately before a player can just go ahead and play.
All the players who slur because they have no choice (to get speed or allow some technical move) sound like "they have no choice".

Examples?

[pamosmusic]

Good example would be someone like Sco who slurs a lot into downbeats like a lot of sax players do. Sco playing straight-ahead, that is.