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Whoever shot and edited this originally should be punched in the face. I guess they were going with "spastic" video editing to match the tempo??? When they started jumping back and forth from the hand shots...
Originally Posted by ecj
Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 02-25-2015 at 01:04 AM. Reason: O
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02-25-2015 01:01 AM
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I'm just a part-time... amateur, not in the position to lecture anybody in guitar technique, but an approach that definitely works in my case is to practice at first only the first two notes of a pattern or lick, progressively increasing the initially slow time, then adding the third note of the phrase and starting again from a slow time, then adding the fourth note etc., always making sure that I'm playing all notes with a nice, full sound (I use something resembling the "Benson picking" only because it's the approach that gives me the firmest attack and less harsh sound) and with the right accents. This approach has a serious drawback, though: it's very easy to forget the "musical sense" of what one is practicing, and to end up playing mechanically (possibly with Chick Corea
). So I advice to make sure you know how the phrase will sound like before starting to practice it (listening to it, or playing it in its entirety, even if sloppily), and not to practice the same pattern or lick this way more than once.
Last edited by Fidelcaster; 02-25-2015 at 04:37 AM.
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I think there are guys that definitely have very little arm motion. McLaughlin is one. Di Meola. Andreas Oberg is probably the only guy playing straight ahead stuff that plays like what Richb is suggesting. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
So there is definitely a case for saying wrist only, but I think it's not fair to claim that and then in no way explain the string changing motion. It's also bs to call the advice to use the elbow for string changes "nonsense" since that's clearly what a lot of high level guys do.
But, I still think that if you closely watch what the folks described above are doing it's the rotation motion of the wrist that drives their playing.
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agreed. arm/elbow position does not feel equivalent for all string sets, at least to me.
in other words, if you're going to play only strings 6-5-4 for a few motives or bars, there is a position that feels optimal. but if you're going to do the same on strings 3-2-1, that "optimal feeling position" is lower. otherwise you really have to turn the wrist, which seems to compromise control, at least for me.
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Exactly. And I think the motion that changes positions is probably sourced in the elbow or shoulder. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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Again there are a few ways to pick... Richb believes in anchoring and being able to mute. I agree and use the technique a lot. It's not the only one... I can shift between different methods of picking, and right hand position etc... but I have a basic default picking method. I don't need to practice a phrase to perform or read the line. This comes from having practiced all the different possible picking possibilities on one string or many strings, with all the interval leaps... and practicing with a organized picking system. You develop the skill as compared to the skill developing you, or being a result of...
I can shred and don't need to practice something to get the fingering or picking together... I always have a default picking system that I start from. It may not be the best for everyone, but it works for me and I'm very average... but I can use it instinctively, it works. I could play faster when I was in my 20'$, but I used the same system. You need to get to the point where your picking happens effortlessly and instinctively, that doesn't just happen. You generally can't pick what you haven't picked before, at least at upper tempos where the thinking and making choices method doesn't work.
There are obviously very physical details that come into play when you play at faster tempos. We're all a little different physically... but more movement is always going to take more actual time and control. And the more natural the movements are to you personally... the easier.
Think about where you want to go... how good do you really want to get. There will be a very direct relationship to how much time will be required and how developed the picking system needs to be.
Pick a system... learn it and understand it. Then learn all the applications. I gave a very simple set of exercises on single strings and string sets that covers almost all applications you'll ever need. And the point is they are boring... because your working on one technical detail. Not combining techniques and creating problems.
The next step after you get the picking method down... is to apply the picking technique to rhythmic variation, like reading through Louis Bellson's Modern Reading Text in 4/4 , and using the rhythmic patterns while playing the boring finger patterns... it's not easy. But You will develop very good picking technique. Or you'll try a different instrument.
Your not memorizing licks, melodies or tunes... your developing technique which will allow you to actually play music.
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Right hand issues are the topic of about every other thread, the OP could check the recent threads about Troy Grady's incredibly informative material which covers pretty much everything about picking. Relating to the wrist/elbow issue, according to Grady it is a misconception, neither is the engine, but the forearm muscles are, and I believe he is right. Cheers,
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Playing a jazz box is different than a solid body... articulations... it's just different technique. I do agree with the pick angle and rotation along with up strokes....but his breaking the code is not for jazz players. Not that it's bad... I believe the only somewhat jazz player was stern and was still on his tele.
It would be interesting to watch Grady play through a complicated jazz tune for the first time on stage.
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wow, this is quite a lot of responses. Sorry to have taken so long.
To address a question earlier:
I can tremolo comfortably at 185bpm. There is a slight combination of forearm movement, but it's mostly from the wrist. It's if I were to skip strings where I can get hung up, particularly with three notes per string where the up and down strokes are mixed, if that makes sense.
So, I have some hesitation about totally reinventing my technique when I can tremolo at a tempo I'm happy with and where I don't necessarily want to do runs or speed bursts at absurd (190+) tempos.
I have tried the doorknob kind of wrist motion and it just feels awkward. My pick goes to an extereme angle to the strings if I try that. Besides, I can feel my wrist using some of those same muscles anyway when I do a tremolo with the technique I'm already using.
If I can do scales across strings the way I do tremolo, I'd be happy.
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Well at least I got one agree out of you... if you didn't notice... the majority of my posts were about how to develop picking technique... not which one to use.
I generally use pick guard with my jazz boxes and bridge with my solid bodies... and they play very differently.
I still mute with my palm on jazz boxes... but the use of the palm moves and even floats around and the left hand also mutes...articulations and phrasing are much more important. And sometimes even use more movement of the picking hand to help create feel, especially grooves. Very different from playing louder fusion, more in rock style... I don't need to play Rock, I'm not sure I could anymore. But as a Kid I played many gigs at Filmore and Winterland... I actually played a 335 back then, gave it to my son.
I'm sure there are players who can do anything... but personally, I have average talent and the guitars are different, just like the music played on them.
I do agree it's not that complicated... but there must be reasons why the majority of guitarist have lousy technique, no chops and need to rehearse everything they play... I'll skip the sight reading connection.
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Hey cowcow... post a vid of you playing two octave arpeggios... or even a up tempo lick that use 5 or 6 strings. You should be able to see and heard where your technique breaks down. When you play something that you rehearse...or scale type of playing it's easier to somewhat camouflage the weak links... harder to see and hear.
You could even tremolo between strings... a couple strings apart.
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like this?
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Believe me, I use slurs plenty... they are definitely in my toolbox for "faking speed". There's just certain stuff I want to do or need to be able to do that requires faster alternate picking.
If the answer is that I just need to keep practicing or practicing particular finger exercises and patterns, that's fine.
I'm concerned though that going from the ground up with economy picking or "doorknob rotations" will work at my age (late 20s).
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So you agree that you need to slide your hand up and down, so how do you think you do it? You use your arm. Just because I wrote the word "elbow" doesn't mean I'm advocating some kind of crazy flailing around. Everything is minute with picking because the distances to traverse are so small. Originally Posted by Richb
Honestly, I'm guessing based on your extreme reaction to these posts when they come up that you can't pick particularly fast. Most of the guys I know that have developed technique on the instrument don't think others are stupid for trying to break down the minutiae of the mechanics, because breaking down the minutiae is where the revelations and development comes from. The advice I passed on is also very common amongst the world of folks who are really into Paul Gilbert.
I'd love to hear more from Reg about his approach. Reg, you've got one of the better and more effortless picking hands I've ever seen. I'll admit I've tried to sit down with your videos and figure out what you're doing, and I can't quite figure out all the mechanics of what you've got going on. I'd be interested to see you break down how you think about your hand/wrist/arm motion through a 5 or 6 string scale pattern.
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I started Benson picking at about 30 and am plenty fast for most of what I want to do now. If what you're doing now isn't working, it's not going to magically start just from repetition. That was a hard lesson for me to learn about practicing. Originally Posted by cowcow
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Haha, okay. Whatever. What are you thinking when you write stuff like this, man? Originally Posted by Richb
Go back and read my post again. I'm saying wrist-based rotation on a single string. That's what Di Meola teaches in various vids, etc. But then you have to think about how you get that nice relaxed tremolo motion to cross over different strings in inside and outside picking patterns. You have to move the tremolo motion laterally across the strings to do it. Some people, like the OP (and me when younger), do it by keeping their forearm locked onto the guitar and trying to just crank their wrist up and down. That ends up creating tons of tension and, if you look at his last video, is what's keeping him from being more fluid.That kind of movement is so slight it is almost imperceptible. I thought you were referring to that horrible arm/elbow/floating RH picking where the whole arm is involved in picking and where people often don't anchor anywhere. Awful.
The other way to do it is to think about very small and controlled sliding of the hand across the strings to keep the basic tremolo-producing apparatus in the same alignment using the elbow or sometimes shoulder. You're just dragging the hand around. I think it helps people a lot to think about breaking things down like this, because often guys have a decent single string tremolo but can't do anything with it.
Also, the OP is extremely tense in the arm when doing his tremolo. If you're using rotation motion it's pretty easy to just sit and tremolo for 5 or 10 minutes while watching TV with no fatigue at all. Rotation is the bees knees.
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That's funny. I was just watching that one. Originally Posted by Richb
Yeah, I think if you pay attention to watching where the base of his thumb is, you'll see how much his arm has to slide up and down from the elbow to get his hand in position.
He also demos the twisting "door knob turn" motion that I'm talking about (look at 2:30, OP).
Still don't agree with you that dampening is super important
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I've never noticed it being a problem for Jim Hall, Wes Montgomery, George Benson, Jimi Hendrix, Django Reinhardt, or any of the other greats who don't dampen strings. I also don't really have any interest in overdrive. Originally Posted by Richb
Does it bug you that classical guitarists don't constantly dampen all their open strings?
I'd really only think it would be a huge deal if you're cranking the OD and playing shred.
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not to nitpick (or thumb pick), but a good classical guitarist does indeed go out of the way to dampen strings when the music indicates that the tone(s) should no longer sound. (it is a huge pain in the ass, especially for a intermediate player like moi). Originally Posted by ecj
Last edited by fumblefingers; 02-26-2015 at 08:33 AM.
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IMO it is perfect for any style... Did you watch the jazz and the bluegrass clips in the Around the world series on YouTube, same basic techniques, same deadly efficiency. You might nitpick a thing or two musically, but still pretty remarkable for a non jazz or bluegrass player. Plus the fact that other than Yngwie, Grady's other main technical reference is gypsy players as hementions several times that it is the only genre where picking has been codified for some time ie several generations. Also says Yngwie does basically the gypsy thing... Bad syntax sorry I'm on my phone. Originally Posted by Reg
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Hey Cowcow Originally Posted by cowcow
Yea,not bad, perfect might be pushing it, So you have a lot movement with each down and up stroke, and when you pick up the speed your losing control of the stroke. I can't see, but also looks like too much pick is being used. you need the least amount of pick between the tip or end of your fingers and the strings. Because your using a somewhat cross finger method of holding the pick... again there is less control due to the distance between the tips of your fingers and the tip of the pick when making attacks on each string.
There is also the hand motion... your fingers and the palm section of your hand can become two parts... your playing with them as one... again fine when your playing most things... but when you want to have control at faster tempos, try and feel the control go from the wrist to the fingers. Your trying to create less movement, less to control. When you pick up your speed your movement stays the same and tightens up and you loose control. I know... show me, no problem I make a vid.
Also your playing a weird arpeggio, right, odd number of beats... which also create odd feel, which helps lead to off accents and help amplify the out of control sound. Try a complete two octave arpeggio, will create better groove, might help with feel also. Generally D-7b5 two octave arp would be played at 8th position. The caged fingering sounds more like a Bb dom. arpeggio and fingering... but that's another difference between playing styles...
And the tremolo should be played between different strings... try between two strings, like 2rd and 3rd, then between 2nd and 4th... these will just help you see how to much movement will expand when etc...
Another detail that helps me... I worked on actually changing the pick angle for up and down attacks, more for better control of accent of attack, but resulted in a more effortless sound when playing.
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Hey m-d, No I didn't check out everything, I'll watch some more, most of them are hard to take, sorry. But I'll dive in again.
I'm not saying bad, but personally still different and not really right technique for jazz, a number of reasons.
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I've become a big believer in the rest stroke system for we mere mortals. But you can't ignore the fact that al di Meola exists and picks just as fast as any gypsy using strict alternate picking. Originally Posted by m_d
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I know what you mean... Grady's sensitivities definitely aren't jazz. Interested to know what you think if you get a chance. Originally Posted by Reg
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Ok, from this day forward I will try this approach. Wish me luck... Originally Posted by ecj
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