Guitar Practice = Play Tunes

[sgcim]

Yes, everything is taken from a Bill Evans slant. He calls all the tunes, and they're either BE original compositions, or jazz standards that BE played.
One bass player booked a slew of gigs with him, and said, "Yeah, we'll turn it into a Bill Evans Tribute thing..."

I've always had a style that's compatible with that type of playing, so he likes the way i play, but i feel like I've got to expand my vocabulary a bit, so I don't get trounced every time we play together.

[monk]

sgcim,
A good place to start would be to acquire and listen to the two duet albums that Evans did with Jim Hall. The titles are Undercurrent and Intermodulation.

I don't know if Evans ever worked with another guitarist other than Hall but both albums are wonderful and will give you a good idea of how a master guitarist approached working with Evans. Learning a bunch of vocabulary from Jim Hall will probably help you in more ways than one.
Regards,
Jerome

[christianm77]

Yes, everything is taken from a Bill Evans slant. He calls all the tunes, and they're either BE original compositions, or jazz standards that BE played.
One bass player booked a slew of gigs with him, and said, "Yeah, we'll turn it into a Bill Evans Tribute thing..."

I've always had a style that's compatible with that type of playing, so he likes the way i play, but i feel like I've got to expand my vocabulary a bit, so I don't get trounced every time we play together.

I've never really understood this outlook TBH, why try to imitate someone else so exactly? Sure, it's a great idea at the early stages to have a clear model, but after a while, it's time to find your own voice. Still, it's a beautiful way to play.

Yeah, the Jim Hall albums are amazing, but Bill takes great pains (IMHO) to play in a way that allows Jim Hall space. He doesn't crowd him out. It's a different dynamic to his trio.

It might be worth having a careful listen to these records together, perhaps even transcribing and playing it.

[sgcim]

sgcim,
A good place to start would be to acquire and listen to the two duet albums that Evans did with Jim Hall. The titles are Undercurrent and Intermodulation.

I don't know if Evans ever worked with another guitarist other than Hall but both albums are wonderful and will give you a good idea of how a master guitarist approached working with Evans. Learning a bunch of vocabulary from Jim Hall will probably help you in more ways than one.
Regards,
Jerome

This isn't a duo, it's a quartet. Totally different situation.
I bought those Hall/Evans LPs 30 years ago.
Actually, when Hall plays in a full group with Evans, he doesn't sound as effective as he does on the duo LPs.
IMHO, Evans probably told Hall what he wanted him to do on the duo LPs.

[christianm77]

This isn't a duo, it's a quartet. Totally different situation.
I bought those Hall/Evans LPs 30 years ago.
Actually, when Hall plays in a full group with Evans, he doesn't sound as effective as he does on the duo LPs.
IMHO, Evans probably told Hall what he wanted him to do on the duo LPs.

In a 4tet one needs to play less :-) Everyone has their natural territory.

IMO the piano/guitar negotiation depends far more on the personality of the musicians and their chemistry than the style of how they play, as it does for all music. It's just that it's particularly acute with these two instruments because they share so much ground.

I find obtrusive from the pianist (or another guitarist) extremely irritating especially if they play rich voicings while I am playing a phrase. Thick piano textures are hard to deal with for me. I wonder if some of this isn't my issue though.

Sometimes I think I am just used to having loads of space in groups without piano. I probably don't leave enough room for the pianist to communicate with me. It might not be a bad thing for the comper to push me out of the way provided it is not constant overcomping, or challenge me with some unexpected harmony. It might throw me slightly at the time, but for the listener it might be really good. Often what we enjoy on the band stand and what sounds good are different things.

On the other hand, some musicians don't listen.

[sgcim]

One thing to keep in mind about Bill Evans; after totally screwing up his life with heroin, Helen Keane took control of every aspect of his career, including who he recorded with on his LPs.

[targuit]

Once again reviving a quiescent thread, but I was reminded of something that Martin Taylor commented on in a performance instruction DVD based upon six Jimmy Van Heusen tunes. He specifically suggested, paraphrasing, "You can start by playing the chord progression of the song as arpeggios just to become very familiar with the song." Of course, he then goes into 'deconstructing' and creating independent melody, harmony, and bass lines that are a refinement of the song in his performance arrangement.

Although I have my own transcriptions I create of these six JVH tunes (Martin's favorite jazz composer), I regularly replay this DVD to refresh my technique playing along with Martin. He also provides the notation and dreaded tab as well.

I actually only own two 'instructional' guitar DVDs, though both are essentially performance based with some commentary - one by Jeff Linsky and the Martin Taylor JVH one. Both fine players.

Jay

[AndyPollow42]

That guy is amazing. I like @ 1:30. Super pretty.

I always do a list of exersizes only on saturday morning. And the rest of the week I only play music. I used to do too much exercises and I think that works good enough.

Like - scales, chords, slurring, harmonics, rythym techniques, speed picking. But only on saturday.

[Reg]

Play tunes... sure how can you go wrong. There are different standards... personally I can play any old pop standard, like christian said standards with vocals from movies, shows, pop and sure I can perform them in any key.

I don't practice tunes in all keys, I just transpose as I play. It's more of a mechanical approach. A typical example would be, at a recent gig the vocalist was OK and the standards were cool, didn't fall asleep and wake up at end of gig...

Anyway a couple all the tunes that were in different keys than the originals... Girl from Ip. in "C", Joy Spring in Ab... and what was strange Donna Lee in "D", No charts, but I hear and visualize tunes in the form of a quick analysis, and always with the structural Form first. So GFI ...AABA and the analysis labels, don't make that much difference to me... II7 or V7/V etc... I understand music... so as long as the root is implied from analysis, I don't really care. I generally listen and adjust harmonically... so GFI could be,
Ima7...II7...II-7 V7 etc... Bridge.... bIIma7....bV7...bII-7... VI7 (or V7/II-) etc... I generally don't modulate unless more than 1/2 of the changes in a section do.... or the modulation is structurally important harmonically, like Joy Spring's 2nd "A"...

I don't really need to practice tunes in different keys, it doesn't matter, I'm comfortable playing in any key... It's a different approach as compared to learning all tunes in all keys.... Once I learn a tune, I can already perform it in all keys. Fingerings for heads sometimes gets screwed up for more difficult tunes, like Donna Lee, but for vocal standards... never a problem.

Just for info... most of the instrumental musicians I perform with now and over the years.... the last thing we want to do is play vocal standards, or in a vocal style. Sure there are exceptions, but generally...

So personally if you don't have your instrumental technique together... your not really going to be able to play that much music... except what ever you can memorize in somewhat set fingerings and positions.

generally what will happen is after a bunch of years, you will have a collection of tunes you can somewhat perform as long as when you perform the tunes they somewhat fit into what the versions you have memorized...

Nothing wrong or right about that approach, but it's not the only approach to playing Jazz.

[sgcim]

Transposing the bridge to GFI is tough, because it really doesn't settle in one key. I only think in terms of roman numerals if the chord is functioning in that key.
If i work with a chick singer who doesn't sing it in F, I transpose the bridge by knowing that it starts on the bII, and then I go by chord to chord fingerboard relations and chord type.
The second chord is going to be a dominant chord a fourth higher.
The third chord is going to be a min7 chord on the same root as the first.
The fourth chord is going to be a dominant chord a bVI away.
The fifth chord is going to be a min7 chord that the previous chord would normally resolve to.
The sixth chord would be a dom. chord a bVI away.

Then I'm back in the home key, and I know it's the iii7, and I'm home-free.

I can play the head to Donna Lee in any key, at any tempo, because I've memorized the fingerings in two different positions- starting in 3rd pos. (my fingerings), and starting in 8th position (Barry Galbraith's innovative fingering).
If you know it in two positions that are distant from each other, that eliminates running into fingering problems.
I play it a lot in F with old horn players who call "Indiana", and quote Donna Lee in it's entirety on my solo to show them that jazz didn't stop in the 1940s.

[Reg]

Yea... there are many ways to skin a cat. Your description looks and sounds cool, maybe slow, for real time applications.

"The second chord is going to be a dominant chord a fourth higher." or just bV7 etc...
Are you somewhat just using your fingerboard as one large grid and moving patterns around to transpose. That would basically just be one thought process, as compared to up then down etc...Does it work while sight reading?

The labeling of changes, whether reflective of keys or more in jazz style of all large case Roman Numerals, doesn't really matter, as long as it implies the change.

So you memorize two fingerings to have a pattern to deal with 2nd and 3rd string 1/2 step difference, and then just move one of the two patterns to the new key.

I use the big grid approach sometimes, but I usually like to have tonal approaches going on.
Donna Lee is just a 16 bar blues , so the changes don't really require much thinking, sometimes I just don't remember the head... but I can basically sight read anything, and generally transpose while sight reading, especially when I have heard the tune etc...

How would you transpose a tune that you didn't know, say something like Chick's "Bud Power" , Joe Henderson tunes Recorda me , Punjab or Inner Urge etc... even a standard like Stella. Same approach, memorize two fingerings etc...

I would think you would need a better system of keeping the changes together.

[christianm77]

I do what reg does pretty much - learn tunes in Roman numerals, key relationships etc. It's good to be able to do that. Makes it easier to spot patterns and recurring chord progressions.

In general, if you can't think of anything else to practice, transposing some bebop heads will always teach you something :-) Especially in position.

[christianm77]

I can play the head to Donna Lee in any key, at any tempo, because I've memorized the fingerings in two different positions- starting in 3rd pos. (my fingerings), and starting in 8th position (Barry Galbraith's innovative fingering).
If you know it in two positions that are distant from each other, that eliminates running into fingering problems.
I play it a lot in F with old horn players who call "Indiana", and quote Donna Lee in it's entirety on my solo to show them that jazz didn't stop in the 1940s.

Donna lee was written in 48 IIRC? ;-)

[sgcim]

Yea... there are many ways to skin a cat. Your description looks and sounds cool, maybe slow, for real time applications.

"The second chord is going to be a dominant chord a fourth higher." or just bV7 etc...
Are you somewhat just using your fingerboard as one large grid and moving patterns around to transpose. That would basically just be one thought process, as compared to up then down etc...Does it work while sight reading?

The labeling of changes, whether reflective of keys or more in jazz style of all large case Roman Numerals, doesn't really matter, as long as it implies the change.

So you memorize two fingerings to have a pattern to deal with 2nd and 3rd string 1/2 step difference, and then just move one of the two patterns to the new key.

I use the big grid approach sometimes, but I usually like to have tonal approaches going on.
Donna Lee is just a 16 bar blues , so the changes don't really require much thinking, sometimes I just don't remember the head... but I can basically sight read anything, and generally transpose while sight reading, especially when I have heard the tune etc...

How would you transpose a tune that you didn't know, say something like Chick's "Bud Power" , Joe Henderson tunes Recorda me , Punjab or Inner Urge etc... even a standard like Stella. Same approach, memorize two fingerings etc...

I would think you would need a better system of keeping the changes together.

It's always easier for me to transpose on sight if I already know the tune, because then I can go by functions, unless it's a special case like the bridge to GFI, where the chords aren't acting functionally within the tonic key.

It's harder for me to transpose changes on sight if I don't know the tune, and I'm forced to think too much and transpose every change up a fourth or whatever the desired transposition is.

Since I worked for 20 years straight in the time period when they still did mainly standards on GB gigs, I know a lot of tunes, and always use that to get by, even in a reading situation.

I just finished two weeks of playing the show, "How To Succeed In Business(Without Really Trying)" , and used my knowledge of the tunes ("I Believe In You"etc..) to help get me through the tough parts. This show was especially difficult because there was NO PIANIST, so I had to be spot on. Most of my calls lately are for gigs where I'm either replacing the pianist, or there is no pianist.

As far as transposing melodies on sight, I always fall back on the fact that i know a lot of tunes from doing a lot of those gigs I mentioned, so if i know the melody to a standard, i can usually play it in any key.

Transposing the melody to a difficult jazz instrumental tune that i've never heard before on sight is way beyond me.
I can play Freedom Jazz Dance in any key, but that's because I know it.

[targuit]

I find that making recordings of standards is the ultimate space where 'the rubber meets the road', though live performance would also qualify. I mean that when I sit down to record a standard, any deficiencies become evident. This weekend I recorded You Don't Know What Love Is in the key of Fm as three tracks - vocal and two classical guitar nylon string tracks.

When I record, I just set up a music stand next to my mic and Korg D1200 in my living room with a copy of my Sibelius transcription of the tune with a melody staff and guitar chordal accompaniment, usually as block chords off which I improvise. The transcription is there for a few reasons. I use it to keep track of lyrics, but also in terms of overdubbing yourself on separate tracks you have to make sure you play in tempo to verse changes, solo instrumental breaks and the like. I tend to play to a click track for that reason as well though that is limiting to a degree. Everything is live in that I do not have editing software, so each track is "live" as recorded.

Although I read music notation fluently, I don't depend on notation and I can transpose any tune I know on the fly. I don't "learn" fingerings in different keys - I just play the music. I learn the tune - transposition is not a problem and although I can analyze the song in terms of Roman numerals, dominant, subdominant, etc, I don't 'think about it' so much as just play what I hear in my mind. My comfort level with sight reading and playing a song that is completely new to me would vary with the 'degree of difficulty' of the part. Like many guitarists I often play with eyes closed, an approach advocated by Liszt and Chopin, especially when recording lead solos.

My practice time revolves around songs rather than etudes and exercises for the most part. and I find that good jazz standards provide all the stimulus I need. But I play at least two hours daily virtually every day, including playing keyboards and composing, which I feel is very synergistic with playing guitar.

[targuit]

What is " standards on GB gigs"? George Benson?

[Reg]

Years ago we used to say general business gig, scum is in England...so maybe ...

[pushkar000]

I can play the head to Donna Lee in any key, at any tempo, because I've memorized the fingerings in two different positions- starting in 3rd pos. (my fingerings), and starting in 8th position (Barry Galbraith's innovative fingering).
If you know it in two positions that are distant from each other, that eliminates running into fingering problems.
I play it a lot in F with old horn players who call "Indiana", and quote Donna Lee in it's entirety on my solo to show them that jazz didn't stop in the 1940s.

Here is Sonny Stitt heralding the apocalypse in 1950 - qualifying it as after the 40's. Boy would I like to see the looks on them horn players faces after hearing this!

[Reg]

Yea... I always loved hearing Sonny Stitt, still do. Many don't always dig his playing because he plays too much etc...
i love hearing great musicians playing too much.

[sgcim]

Here is Sonny Stitt heralding the apocalypse in 1950 - qualifying it as after the 40's. Boy would I like to see the looks on them horn players faces after hearing this!

After being wiped out on three different gigs by sax players playing Donna Lee at a tempo like that, i made it part of my daily practice routine.
After almost 30 years of playing and blowing on it at 320 to 336bpm, now i wipe them out.

[docbop]

After being wiped out on three different gigs by sax players playing Donna Lee at a tempo like that, i made it part of my daily practice routine.
After almost 30 years of playing and blowing on it at 320 to 336bpm, now i wipe them out.

Records could only hold three minutes so they had to play fast to get all there notes in. <grin>

I dig Sonny not could he burn, but you heard the changes going on. He was playing great till he passed.

[christianm77]

Records could only hold three minutes so they had to play fast to get all there notes in. <grin>

I dig Sonny not could he burn, but you heard the changes going on. He was playing great till he passed.

I love the '78 thing where everything is super on point and tight - like the original Salt Peanuts.

It may not have been performing practice but it made for some great records.

[pkirk]

I love the '78 thing where everything is super on point and tight - like the original Salt Peanuts.

It may not have been performing practice but it made for some great records.

I agree. There's something about the focus of having to get it all out in one chorus, or even a half chorus, that makes those bebop sides
such gems. There's an interesting post on ethan iveson's blog about great short jazz tunes, he mentions Trane's "bessie's blues", Amahd jamal's "but not for me", Sonny Rollins "three little words", and Miles' "riot"

I wrote a tune once where the soloists "round robinned" 12 bar solos, which I though was a pretty cool idea:

http://mypage.iu.edu/~pkirk/pics/song1.mp3

[christianm77]

I like the track. It definitely has the impression of being longer than it is, like a lot of those '78s - it's how much you can pack in.

[Reg]

After being wiped out on three different gigs by sax players playing Donna Lee at a tempo like that, i made it part of my daily practice routine.
After almost 30 years of playing and blowing on it at 320 to 336bpm, now i wipe them out.

Ha Ha HA... yea I generally get along great with musicians... but I do enjoy saying, no problem I'll transpose and we can read the chart together. Years ago most horns all transposed, somewhat a dying skill and with the use of Ipads, very soon the charts will have melody transposing apps, not just changes.

It's all good... the last few times I played Donna Lee were with vocalist anyway.