What's wrong with my Muscle Memory?

[Jonzo]

..."learn tunes" can be lazy advice...

Most any advice boiled down to two words will be problematic. What people mean when they say "learn tunes" is "master discrete skills within the context of tunes."

That said, I also like to drill "high value" patterns outside the context of tunes.

[ecj]

I have heard your playing, and you are not an expert. By your logic, you should shut up and wait for an expert to comment. Otherwise, try to support your position with something more than insinuations about my playing.

Talking to you is like a train wreck every time, man. If you're going to intentionally let everyone know that you are a "Bad Guitarist" and you don't want to post any playing, then please stop giving everyone advice on how to learn jazz guitar.

Building a repertoire and understanding movable forms and transcription are not mutually exclusive. A carefully selected repertoire, of tunes in different keys and positions, will give beginning students a playable repertoire, and will familiarize them with movable shapes and alternate voicings to use in transcribing later. As you said, many "building blocks" repeat, so learning new tunes in new keys is already laying the groundwork for transcription.

Put yourself in the shoes of a true beginner. Do you want to know fewer tunes in more keys, or more tunes in fewer keys? Transcription can wait until students can play a short set that brings them joy.

This is why I pointed this out. What you are describing sounds to me like a beginner's guide to building a small repertoire of solo guitar arrangements. That's cool. But is that what the OP wants? It sounds like he's planning to audition for music programs, and might need to be able to quickly get up to speed comping through jazz tunes without playing everything exactly the same way chorus after chorus.

To do that, you need to be able to put things in different positions. Transposing from the very beginning is also a great way to develop the mental skills you need to perform jazz tunes and sight read charts. These are all things that teachers who were way better than I am have instructed me to do, and they were beneficial. That's why I'm sharing them.

[Pat Clare]

There are no shortcuts, it's a lifetime process enjoy the journey, don't rush it.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I have heard your playing, and you are not an expert. By your logic, you should shut up and wait for an expert to comment. Otherwise, try to support your position with something more than insinuations about my playing.

It's foolish to use a word like "logic" to insult someone when your argument proves you don't know what it means.

[monk]

Evan,
I respectfully submit that a beginner has a full plate just learning the grips to a half dozen standards without feeling the pressure to play it differently every time. That's a skill that comes with experience as well as focused study after learning the "Jazz 101" skills.

My experience in swing band situations, both big band and small group, is that the rest of the players prefer consistency over inventiveness. When I first started playing this music, I never once had a musician or bandleader come to me and complain that I had played the song exactly the same way for 12 choruses.

I think that a lot aspiring jazz players become overwhelmed and discouraged by the amount of "you gotta do this, this, this, this and that" advice that gets handed out. One thing at a time learned well and then another.........
Regards,
Jerome

[mr. beaumont]

I agree, and I'm not sure Evan was getting at that type of proficiency as a prereq either.

I think that the idea of consistency being valued over inventiveness is pretty important...and remember too, one can be inventive in other ways...play the same shapes each time through, but vary the rhtyhms...maybe only play two or three strings on a chord...there's a lot that can be done with relatively little...

Which is why I get back to those 12 chord shapes...man7, m7, 7, half dim, string sets 4321, 5432, and 6432...I think just about anybody can handle 12 chords...

[monk]

Hey Jeff,
What's a man7? That sounds pretty hairy.

[ecj]

Evan,
I respectfully submit that a beginner has a full plate just learning the grips to a half dozen standards without feeling the pressure to play it differently every time. That's a skill that comes with experience as well as focused study after learning the "Jazz 101" skills.

My experience in swing band situations, both big band and small group, is that the rest of the players prefer consistency over inventiveness. When I first started playing this music, I never once had a musician or bandleader come to me and complain that I had played the song exactly the same way for 12 choruses.

I think that a lot aspiring jazz players become overwhelmed and discouraged by the amount of "you gotta do this, this, this, this and that" advice that gets handed out. One thing at a time learned well and then another.........
Regards,
Jerome

I actually did get chewed out by a teacher early on in my learning for playing chorus after chorus the same way. I think it's probably different when you are playing in a duo versus in a big band. I totally agree that you shouldn't overwhelm someone.

I can see what you guys are saying, but what I'm suggesting is pretty basic. Like learn the three different ways to play a 2 5 1 that Mr. B mentions, then learn to do it in different keys. So if I'm working with someone I might show them a basic 2 5 1 in C. Then I'd say, okay, so now how would you play that in the key of D. Or, okay, how about playing that starting from a different C on the guitar.

Working with small chunks is, incidentally, a lot easier than doing it with a whole tune, which is why I suggested working on little musical phrases. I think this is how we all learned to play blues, right?

I feel like the "movable chunks" mindset is really super important to learning jazz, as is starting to develop a habit of trying to do different things in the moment and not pre-planning every phrase. Beginners can improvise, too!

[docbop]

Hey Jeff,
What's a man7? That sounds pretty hairy.

Chordal evolution vs Chordal creationist.

[Jonzo]

Talking to you is like a train wreck every time, man.

Avoid snarky comments next time, and stick to addressing the topic.

This is why I pointed this out. What you are describing sounds to me like a beginner's guide to building a small repertoire of solo guitar arrangements. That's cool. But is that what the OP wants? It sounds like he's planning to audition for music programs, and might need to be able to quickly get up to speed comping through jazz tunes without playing everything exactly the same way chorus after chorus.

To do that, you need to be able to put things in different positions. Transposing from the very beginning is also a great way to develop the mental skills you need to perform jazz tunes and sight read charts. These are all things that teachers who were way better than I am have instructed me to do, and they were beneficial. That's why I'm sharing them.

The OP, and you, touched on several topics.
If you want to focus solely on the audition and college program, fine.

There appears to be no transposing requirement for the audition. Given the short time frame until the audition, he should definitely put off transposing for now, and focus on nailing those audition pieces in the keys in which he intends to perform them. He should only learn as many variations as he can absolutely kill.

As far as preparing for the actual college program goes, I couldn't say for sure. My kids have expert teachers, and they have not been asked to transpose much yet, and they are at least in the top 10% of high school musicians. Kids in their program get into the top music schools, often with full scholarships. They just keep getting new tunes to learn, and are expected to push their skills farther on each.

I can't argue whether my experts are better than yours, but, when in doubt, I would default to what is more fun.

(See how nice a discussion that stays on the topic can be?)

[Jonzo]

It's foolish to use a word like "logic" to insult someone when your argument proves you don't know what it means.

PM if you need me to walk you through it.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I have heard your playing, and you are not an expert. By your logic, you should shut up and wait for an expert to comment. Otherwise, try to support your position with something more than insinuations about my playing.

Ok...logic:
****************************************
Members making know-it-all statements should post their playing to show that they actually know it all about the topic before nitpicking other players comments to death and derailing threads.

and your logical development of this notion:

Members making know-it-all statements should post their playing to show that they actually know it all about the topic before nitpicking other players comments to death and derailing threads.

...but only if the player calling them out actually plays better than Wes Montgomery.
***************************************

You can call that "logic", but there's a better word for it.

You speak with the authority of someone that plays really well. It's condescending and annoying

[Badge]

Which is why I get back to those 12 chord shapes...man7, m7, 7, half dim, string sets 4321, 5432, and 6432...I think just about anybody can handle 12 chords...

That's the way to go I think, especially in the beginning (now for me). The guitar is so multi-faceted and you can lose the wood for the trees.

I went to a Rolling Stones concert recently. I read with interest that Keith Richards removed the top E string from his guitar because it complicates things too much for him. One approach I've thought of doing is ignoring entirely the low E and A and just becoming a master of the top 4 strings' voicings and movements. At least for a while, until that becomes second nature.

[docbop]

I went to a Rolling Stones concert recently. I read with interest that Keith Richards removed the top E string from his guitar because it complicates things too much for him. One approach I've thought of doing is ignoring entirely the low E and A and just becoming a master of the top 4 strings' voicings and movements. At least for a while, until that becomes second nature.

They call that Tenor guitar it was the evolution from the banjo to tenor to eventual 6-string guitar. A year or so ago Howard Alden chord melody master had Benedetto make him a tenor guitar that he gigs with from time to time.


If you would ever hear a off the board recording of the Stones live you'd never want to do anything Keith or Ron did.

[ecj]

Avoid snarky comments next time, and stick to addressing the topic.

You might want to start seriously asking yourself why you need a ridiculous disclaimer in your signature line.

Interestingly, the OP is working with Jody Fisher's books. I have also worked through Jody Fisher's books.

Jody Fisher advises his students to transpose everything into all 12 keys from the very first example in his "Beginning Jazz Guitar" book.

[Jonzo]

Ok...logic...

I said PM.

Let's keep the thread on topic.

[Jonzo]

You might want to start seriously asking yourself why you need a ridiculous disclaimer in your signature line.

Again, try to avoid snark. Let's keep the tread on topic. PM if you need an explanation of my signature line.

[ecj]

Again, try to avoid snark. Let's keep the tread on topic. PM if you need an explanation of my signature line.

Why on earth would you think I was being snarky? You post all the time about being a real beginner who is more interested in the process of learning than playing. The last time we had an exchange you were working on some kind of computer program to put exercises from method books into a rotation.

I was honestly curious about whether or not you were finally playing full tunes. I still am. Are you actually performing full pieces now? Intros, outros, solos, tags, etc.?

[fep]

I have heard your playing, and you are not an expert. By your logic, you should shut up and wait for an expert to comment. Otherwise, try to support your position with something more than insinuations about my playing.

WTF dude. It's one thing to attack my playing as you have in the past, I'm an admitted amateur and hobbyist but...

Ecj plays at a professional level and actually plays professionally. He spends a lot of time and effort refining his craft. His talk is backed up by his playing which he has posted on this forum. And he also has a terrific voice.

[ecj]

WTF dude. It's one thing to attack my playing as you have in the past, I'm an admitted amateur and hobbyist but...

Ecj plays at a professional level and actually plays professionally. And also has a terrific voice.

Thanks, Frank. Really appreciate the compliment.

I don't consider myself an expert or a pro - just someone who really loves the music and is trying to get better - but I do really appreciate your kind words.

[Jonzo]

ECJ--Certainly understanding some of the scheduling methods I have discussed would benefit you, but they are off topic here.

Back to the OP...

It doesn't really matter if the chords slowly slide or suddenly snap into place, as long as they get there. If you work patiently and persistently they will. To meet your short-term college goals, consider holding off on big difficult chords for now, and using simpler voicings that you can play the hell out of. No one is going to say, "Excuse me, can you play the more complicated version of that chord?" In many (most?) contexts the simpler ones sound better anyway. Some folks have made careers out of two and three note jazz chords.

When I first started learning chords, the first batch took a really long time to become comfortable. There was a pretty long plateau period for me. As I go along, each new chord becomes a little easier to learn.

[Jonzo]

WTF dude. It's one thing to attack my playing as you have in the past, I'm an admitted amateur and hobbyist but...

Ecj plays at a professional level and actually plays professionally. He spends a lot of time and effort refining his craft. His talk is backed up by his playing which he has posted on this forum. And he also has a terrific voice.

I don't recall attacking your playing FEP. I like your playing and EJC's. I think I have said before something along the lines of there being few true experts here. But I am not the one hung up on anyone else's playing ability.

My point is that if you want to set a bar for participating in the discussion, why not set it in the stratosphere? Then we can all relax and let the GREAT ONE hold forth. If you are going to back up your ideas with your playing, I would rather hear from someone even better.

[inwalkedbud]

That's the way to go I think, especially in the beginning (now for me). The guitar is so multi-faceted and you can lose the wood for the trees.

Damn this place is never dull. ^ this however is total vanilla, cliche, EXCEPTIONAL advice. Dude's trying to prepare for an audition then let's get his audition shit right. Then he'll ideally have a teacher who can look at his hands and evaluate his playing in detail and give him infinitely better advice then any of us here in the peanut gallery.

Transposing tunes is an incredibly important skill to have but I think three things are being over-looked here.

1. Yes it's important but it's also a fairly advanced skill that maybe just maybe the OP isn't ready for and that's nothing to be ashamed about.

2. Transposing tunes is not so that you can play it in any key (though that is useful) it's so that you really thoroughly learn the twists and turns of the harmony.

3. Some guys swear by it and some never do it ever. A buddy had a lesson where he asked a big time player about that and the guy was like "Why? What are you going to do play Yardbird Suite in B? That's dumb." Depends on how the brain works. ECJ is a singer so he probably transposes a lot more than your average guitar player so he may see that practical applications in addition to the theoretical.

As for the actual question - back to the forest for the trees - I saw someone post something about breaking stuff down into smaller voicings if the big voicing is too hard. That's great advice. Mr. B threw out some about a few must know shapes and that's great as well. I had classical teachers who basically said you're ALWAYS practicing and ALWAYS building muscle memory so anything you play is building muscle memory whether it was right or not. So take your time... pick a few things to work on... play them nice and slow... put them in context... play them nice and slow some more ... transpose the tune or part of the tune to get them in a few different spots if you feel like it ... if not get try them in a new tune... make everything as musical as possible. Start throwing in rhythms like Mr. B said. Really burn out on those voicings and on your audition tune in one key before you go crazy with a million others (voicings, keys, or tunes). Slowly. Deliberately. Correctly. Then the muscle memory will get there. Get your bearings before you worry about being Lenny Breau (or Jody Fisher for that matter).

[inwalkedbud]

If you are going to back up your ideas with your playing, I would rather hear from someone even better.

I think it's more about people being able to apply proper weight to another's advice. If the great one were here then everyone would know to put 9 out of 10 on his advice and 3/10 (maybe 3.5 on a good day) on my advice. There's always the possibility that someone can give very damaging advice to a beginner and the beginner doesn't know any better than to follow it. You're not necessarily doing that here. I'm just explaining the logic of having a little playing out there so that people know where others are coming from. Not that weird of an idea.

[Jonzo]

That is exactly why I am a self proclaimed Bad Guitarist. Read what I said, weight it how you want, and then draw your own conclusions. What get tired of is...

Me: You just contradicted yourself.

Expert: Oh yeah, how many tunes can you can you play?

Me: The audition does not require transcription. It would be best to focus on learning the tunes as you intend to play them.

Expert: Oh yeah, how many tunes can you play?