Guitar Picking Speed

**Patrick2** · 10-24-2014, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian

Now, now guys. Like the rest of us, Rich has an absolute right to his opinion.
.
And we can reserve the right to laugh hysterically while our drink of the day comes out of our noses and we get bruised from rolling on the floor.

Richb absolutely does have a right to his opinion, as we all do. But, he doesn't have a right to dictate his opinions as statements of fact. BIG difference. I will definitely respect Richb's opinions on just about anything. But, I won't accept his opinions as factual.

In my own not so humble opinion, the L5CES is without a doubt the finest jazz arch top guitar ever made anywhere and by anyone. But, that doesn't mean it is factually correct.

**Patrick2** · 10-24-2014, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by ecj

Haha, Rich you are so full of shit. You should email Metheny and Benson and ask what they think of Wes' pocket. Both have described him as the greatest jazz guitar player of all time.

When you say stuff like this it makes me wonder what you are listening to. It seems like you are more into jazz fusion with a straighter 8s time-feel than classic jazz.

" . . you are so full of shit"

I'm surprised at the vulgarity of this and the lack of political correctness. You could just as easily have said the he was stuffed over full with still very fresh and very foul smelling fecal matter. *Shit* is such a shitty word . . don't-cha think?? ;-)

**ecj** · 10-24-2014, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

" . . you are so full of shit"

I'm surprised at the vulgarity of this and the lack of political correctness. You could just as easily have said the he was stuffed over full with still very fresh and very foul smelling fecal matter. *Shit* is such a shitty word . . don't-cha think?? ;-)

Probably, but sometimes vulgarity produces the desired effect.

**targuit** · 10-24-2014, 01:03 PM

Awww....who really cares? In my humble view, the pocket is elastic - rush a bit here, drag a bit there. If you are always right on top of the note it gets to be....Pat Martino. Read a bit boring. (Pat Martino aficionados are locking and loading as we speak...) I'm just kidding a little but I do think the pocket has to be elastic or everything would sound like it is on a tempo grid. Bad enough that we so often record to a click track.

Jay

**Patrick2** · 10-24-2014, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by pkirk

sorry for interjecting an irrelevant comment into an internet argument. carry on...

Think nothing of it. You're forgiven. ;-)

**Patrick2** · 10-24-2014, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Awww....who really cares? In my humble view, the pocket is elastic - rush a bit here, drag a bit there. If you are always right on top of the note it gets to be....Pat Martino. Read a bit boring. (Pat Martino aficionados are locking and loading as we speak...) I'm just kidding a little but I do think the pocket has to be elastic or everything would sound like it is on a tempo grid. Bad enough that we so often record to a click track.

Jay

Totally agree. Jazzers are humans, people, imperfect . . not machines with flawless accuracy. I've heard jazz guitarist hit slightly behind the beat . . . . and then dead nuts on top of it . . all in the same improvised solo. Loved it!!! It was a part of their music.

Speaking of click tracs . . picture this . . take a guy like Gadd, who admittedly does have great sense of time . . put him on a click trac with ear buds . . and splice into the click trac with your own set of ear buds. Have him do a solid 4/4 beat for 48 measures, no other musicians . . just Gadd on the drums. But, cut Gadd's ear buds off after 8 measures. Would you imagine Gadd's (or any other drummer's) 48th measure would end at precisely the same split second as the click trac?? Would you imagin his groove or meter would remain perfect to the click trac throughout the rest of the 48 measures?? That would be a very interesting test to do. I wonder if it's ever been done.

I remember when I was in management, we had an act with a drummer whose meter was all over the place. The singer was adamantly against replacing the drummer . . . so, we had to hook him up (only him) with a click trac. Worked like a charm. The singer, by the way, was Rod Stewart's squeeze (at the time) Kelly Emberg.

**ecj** · 10-24-2014, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Speaking of click tracs . . picture this . . take a guy like Gadd, who admittedly does have great sense of time . . put him on a click trac with ear buds . . and splice into the click trac with your own set of ear buds. Have him do a solid 4/4 beat for 48 measures, no other musicians . . just Gadd on the drums. But, cut Gadd's ear buds off after 8 measures. Would you imagine Gadd's (or any other drummer's) 48th measure would end at precisely the same split second as the click trac?? Would you imagin his groove or meter would remain perfect to the click trac throughout the rest of the 48 measures?? That would be a very interesting test to do. I wonder if it's ever been done.

I've been working on something like this. I do a lot of practicing with a Boss loop pedal. I'll turn on the recording function while comping and singing the melody, then activate the loop on 1 when I come around back to the top of the form for the solo. Then I can practice soloing over my own rhythm.

I've gotten to where I can do it well enough that no rhythmic variance is noticeable when the loop restarts, which I think means my time is pretty solid all the way through the form. I should note that I'm not doing this with a metronome.

Seems kind of like what you suggested, and it's great practice in maintaining a steady groove. I was terrible at it at first. Not sure if I could do the same thing soloing right now, but I'm getting there.

**Patrick2** · 10-24-2014, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by ecj

I've been working on something like this. I do a lot of practicing with a Boss loop pedal. I'll turn on the recording function while comping and singing the melody, then activate the loop on 1 when I come around back to the top of the form for the solo. Then I can practice soloing over my own rhythm.

I've gotten to where I can do it well enough that no rhythmic variance is noticeable when the loop restarts, which I think means my time is pretty solid all the way through the form. I should note that I'm not doing this with a metronome.

Seems kind of like what you suggested, and it's great practice in maintaining a steady groove. I was terrible at it at first. Not sure if I could do the same thing soloing right now, but I'm getting there.

If I understand the loopers correctly, they self correct irregular timing input. Is that the case?

**ecj** · 10-24-2014, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

If I understand the loopers correctly, they self correct irregular timing input. Is that the case?

I don't think mine is that sophisticated.

**Vladan** · 11-01-2014, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by pkirk

Hey Patrick, not taking sides here, nor do I want a piece of this argument, but your post just reminded me... I one had a discussion with Louis Bellson, about 25 years ago. He told me one of his favorite young drummers was Steve Gadd....

While on subject, one of the best 2 drummers I personally know said the same thing as Rich B, about Gadd. This other one probably never herd of him, Gadd.

BTW Pkirk, that was really nice article, about Maths and Music, could not bother to memorize the title and the name of the author, who close to the end started sounding like he was working for USA government, or at least was ammong the leaders of oposition (for participating public, yes, oposites, but that's how he sounded, one or either ...), then in conclusion he went half way back to what was realy good, I mean, all the notions and ideas about the subject were very acceptable to me, to say at least. I had some simillar thoughts. my self.

**pkirk** · 11-01-2014, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Vladan

BTW Pkirk, that was really nice article, about Maths and Music, could not bother to memorize the title and the name of the author, who close to the end started sounding like he was working for USA government, or at least was ammong the leaders of oposition (for participating public, yes, oposites, but that's how he sounded, one or either ...), then in conclusion he went half way back to what was realy good, I mean, all the notions and ideas about the subject were very acceptable to me, to say at least. I had some simillar thoughts. my self.

glad you like it vladan. It was partly a polemic against some articles about analyzing music written by mathematicians and articles by music theorists attempting to use math to validate their ideas.

**Vladan** · 11-01-2014, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by ecj

Much as I love Benson and Martino, I'd argue that Wes' solo below is the superior of the three if you're looking at groove, especially when he leaps into the octave section. They're all in the pocket in their own way, but I feel like Wes sits in with the drummer and bass better than the other two:

Wes's solo was the best because it had the most variety and the least endless 1/8 note passages and incorporated the most "searching". He did kinda rushed, though.
No joke. I'd never bother to listen for that, but this discussion made me to.

Benson's solo would have been the best, for the power and expression, if he hadn't go for endless 1/8 passages here and there, probably to only to show of in the manner of those barhouse player's contests, how superior he is to any possible contestant, shoild there somehow be one, in public, or wherever.

Martino's solo is the best there could ever be in endless 1/8 soloss. It is far from dull and as far from boring as possible. Targuit, you were only 50% joking about it, but 100% you were wrong. Now, that was 50% joke.

Pocket may witness players abillity, but there's much more to make one solo good, or bad.

**Vladan** · 11-01-2014, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by pkirk

glad you like it vladan. It was partly a polemic against some articles about analyzing music written by mathematicians and articles by music theorists attempting to use math to validate their ideas.

Yes, I understood that and I totally agree with the auther about how shallow and wrong those were, aswell as to how abstract nature is what really connects the two.

**Irez87** · 11-01-2014, 10:03 PM

Pocket players, huh? Well, in high school us kids hand those baggie jeans with pockets down to our knees...

In terms of deep pocket playing, I dunno if contemporary players can contend with Peter Bernstein. That guy... whew. Every note is placed just right in the groove...

Makes me think, what do pocket players have that others don't? These days, I have been really working on internalizing time in larger chunks. When you first learn the idiom, everyone says put the metronome on two and four to get that high hat feel. I think that is great, but it doesn't tell you anything about harmonic rhythmn and melodic phrases.

These days, I practice time studies from a guy I took lessons from in college. Bruce Arnold has an entire website that is devoted to musicianship and pocket players are the kings and queens of musicianship. Anyway, he developed metronomes that click every 2 measures, 4 measures, and 8 measures. I am working on internalizing 2 and 4 measure passages of time, and it has helped the fluidity of my lines and my pocket.

Here is a link to the studies: Category View | Muse EEK

Makes ya think, you can play anything if you are aware of the rhythmic cadence (as opposed to the harmonic cadence) of your line. Harmonic subs be damned if you down have your phrasing down.

**Irez87** · 11-01-2014, 10:17 PM

By the way, Billy Bean... awesome find. Never heard his stuff. Louis Stewart has some cool drumless trio stuff as well. Great groove...

**princeplanet** · 11-02-2014, 01:16 AM

Time? Pocket? Groove? Elasticity? What y'all measuring this with? A stop watch? Go back and listen to Parker or Rollins fer chrissakes, it's not just about time, it's also about dynamics.

If we're chasing great phrasing, then let's listen to the cats with the big, deep dynamic elastic pockets.....

**Irez87** · 11-02-2014, 11:17 AM

Yes, dynamics. Another aspect of pick control (see that, I brought it back to the thread topic). I had a discussion about dynamics with a horn player. I set up my guitar with action high enough to compensate for more pick dynamics without getting buzz. Dynamics are often over looked in guitar playing. To learn dynamics, listen to classical music. How about Glen Gould playing Bach?

**Tony_C** · 11-03-2014, 09:36 PM

I agree big time that dynamics are seriously overlooked. My old teacher (Mark Dziuba) had a great feel and sound, and a lot of it was his dynamics, specifically ghost notes. I've yet to really work on it a lot, but it is worth the time. I get the sense that reg has a good amount of ghost notes in his playing as well and that contributes to his sound. This isn't to say time isn't also massively important.

I have a lot of things to say about speed, but I'll have to make the post another time. It'll probably end up being pretty long. I started off wanting to be a shredder, and about two years ago I went through a super nitty-gritty analysis of technique thinking I would write a book (who knows?) and rebuild my own technique from scratch. I'd be willing to share the in progress document. The only reason I wouldn't is because it is an organizational nightmare. Lots of random thoughts and hundreds of links. Can't say it made me into a master or how much of it really stuck, but hopefully I have some helpful thoughts to contribute.

**pauln** · 11-03-2014, 11:43 PM

I can relate to those using the thick picks; focusing mostly on soloing for many years my picks moved up thicker until I hit 2mm and used that for many years. The feel seemed to naturally promote accuracy, articulation, and speed.

Later, my projects required much more comping and the thick pick became a problem for chords - in order to calm down the volume produced by the pick that made it so good for solo lines, when held lightly and brushed gently across the strings the pick no longer "pulled" the strings firmly, but rather "clacked" across the strings adding a lot of undesirable noise and a weakness to the tone of the chords... there did not seem to be a middle ground.

Lately I have switched to using a .73mm nylon pick that is pretty soft, but I am getting used to it quickly. The tone for solo lines is perfect and I can still play chords without any "clacking" of the pick - the tone for both is very similar and consistent. Fast play with chords is much easier; fast playing single notes still takes a slight shift in conceptual feel, but over the last few weeks that is coming around nicely.

The lighter pick produces less signal level out of the guitar, but the amp (Twin Reverb) sounds nice and warm when turned up a little to compensate.

**paco** · 11-05-2014, 09:06 PM

My post in the alternate picking thread may be of some interest.

**javierfiji** · 12-30-2014, 10:19 AM

Playing bach violín partitas helps a lot to devolp speed, And precision in your Picking , You can aproach it using alternate Picking in some passages , in others You can playing using economic Picking. There are a lot of sequecenses And string skiping. When I practice it I usually do it really slow trying to figure out the best fingerings.

**Frank67** · 12-30-2014, 10:33 AM

Nice! And you do all this from memory?

**MarkRhodes** · 12-30-2014, 10:48 AM

Very nice. I'm (gradually) working my way toward Barry Galbraith's book/CD of Bach pieces arranged for guitar. Hope I sound as smooth then as you do now!

**Reg** · 12-30-2014, 11:43 AM

Yea, very nice javierfiji... just wondering, about the picking speed thing. I could hear the tension when you had to perform the 16th note short parts etc... you somewhat tightened up, at least that's what I heard. Still beautiful performance, thanks.

But if your were to sight read through the violin partitas, what would be your picking be, what is your default picking without working it out. Even with the tone down, you can hear the articulations from the picking and fingerings and sorry to pick your performance out, we all have performance results from our technical skills.

Again beautiful playing, just interested because of your comment about working it out as compared to what your natural picking style might be. Much of the time performing jazz doesn't allow time for working out best picking etc... you generally use whatever your pre programed picking and fingerings style is, and the articulations and dynamics are a result of how well developed this technique is, how much control you end up with.

A few gigs ago I was trading phrases, (4's 8's etc...) with a violin and I was basically answering his lines, playing what he played. I was having fun because of his bowing etc...how he was accenting with use of bow or just slurring... short story... I was adjusting my fingerings and picking to try and copy his playing. Adjusting my default style, was fun.