tuck andres and the unbearable importance of picking angle

[MarkRhodes]

Just look in Noad book one.

Well, I don't have that. I've never studied classical playing.

[edh]

That's what I thought but it is not clear to me that that's right. I wrote a classical guitarist who belongs to this forum and asked him for his take on this. He said he would look at the thread. I take it that he has but decided to say nothing about her claim. I'm unsure what to make of that.

I would take that as "not right".

BTW, I don't have fingernails, I have claws.

[Phiberopttic]

For me, having studied classical guitar, the angle of my finger picking technique closely matches the angle of my plectrum technique; in terms of attacking the string. But this is entirely because of the tone I'm trying to get, rather than to facilitate tremolo or rapid passages (any fool can play fast).

That in mind, for a right-handed guitarist playing with the right side of the pick (thumb pointing down), is similar to a classical guitar finger picking position. While a right-handed guitarist picking with the left side of the pick (thumb pointed upwards, the GB technique), is similar to a lute picking technique.

None of this really matters, as it is a preference and comfort thing. However, the older I get, the more I realize that my right hand technique requires more work (and offers greater reward) than my left hand technique.

[MarkRhodes]

here is a whole page of images of cg right hand

classical guitar right hand

none of which will help anyone achieve an acceptable, much less sublime, tone...generally not attained without diligent and careful study, with the guidance of a master, and even then, many factors come into play...your stars must align...

My thought was more basic: what would the angle at which a classical guitarist holds a finger (-though he or she uses several fingers as well as the thumb when playing) have to do with what makes a pick angle effective for a plectrum guitarist?

NB: the articles linked in this thread are NOT the ones in which Sheryl Bailey made the claim. Docbop reported that she said it in the August 2014 issue of "Guitar Player," which to my knowledge is not available for free online yet.

[MarkRhodes]

my guess is that "benson" picking should actually be called church picking, funk picking or even afro-american picking in the same way it's not called django picking but gipsy picking. every guitarist in every funk or church band i've seen on youtube uses this technique and i assume that this was already the case when benson started out.

You may be seeing this the wrong way round. All of the church / funk guitarists you've seen using this technique on YouTube were recorded long after George Benson came on the scene. Further, many earlier jazz guitarist who were African-American did not pick this way. Charlie Christian didn't, and T-Bone Walker didn't. Obviously, Wes didn't, and neither did Grant Green. Branching out, Barney Kessel and Herb Ellis didn't either, and neither did Django.

Now Jimmy Nolen---the most influential of James Brown's funky guitar players---built his "chicken scratch" sound on a rapid 16th-note strum. I'm not sure how he held his pick, though. But then, that too was after George Benson came along....

[MarkRhodes]

there was a link (somewhere...the benson thread, maybe) to her website, wherein was an interview.....

Yes, there were links and interviews. But the initial claim about THIS (-the Benson pick angle and the classical gutiarist's right hand) came from docbop who did not provide a link and said the article he read it in was the current (August) issue of "Guitar Player." If you found THAT interview, I'd love to see the exact quote. (Docbop was paraphrasing, and I assume his paraphrase was good.)

[MarkRhodes]

you'll find a ton of clips where you encounter this picking independently from benson:

I don't doubt that. But no clip of anyone playing AFTER Benson can be submitted as proof that the technique was prevalent BEFORE Benson.

To be clear, it's not like Benson told people to call it "Benson picking"---it picked up that name because so many people associated it with him! I don't think that would have happened if people were used to seeing lots of guitars play that way.

I wouldn't be surprised if some other players did this before him, but no names leap to mind of anyone in the early '60s who played this way and was as good as George was. I grew up loving Jimi Hendrix but I don't think he had the chops George had by age 25.

[MarkRhodes]

my guess is that "benson" picking should actually be called church picking, funk picking or even afro-american picking in the same way it's not called django picking but gipsy picking. every guitarist in every funk or church band i've seen on youtube uses this technique and i assume that this was already the case when benson started out. i don't think that for example all the james brown guitarists, starting with jimmy nolen, did study george benson's right hand it was just the way they had learned how to pick (probably more often than not in church bands where most of them started out.)

I want to re-visit this and go at it the other way for a bit. Who are you saying should call this "church picking" or "funk picking", or "Afro-American picking"?

[Reg]

Sorry to jump in late...

I'm nobody... but in the early 60's I was aware of pick angle and basically any aspect of picking, just from logically looking at the physical aspects of trying to play at faster tempos, tone and articulating. I posted about this a few years ago when I first joined JGF.

I'm sure basically anyone with any organizational thoughts or skills that wanted to get better at playing guitar would have experimented with most aspects of picking.

You usually will look for a door when trying to enter a room, rather than just keep bumping into the wall...

[Phiberopttic]

My thought was more basic: what would the angle at which a classical guitarist holds a finger (-though he or she uses several fingers as well as the thumb when playing) have to do with what makes a pick angle effective for a plectrum guitarist?

In my playing, when using my fingers, I slide through the string at a "45 degree" (give or take) angle. With a plectrum, I effectively do the same, by picking with the side/edge of the pick; rather than holding the flat of the pick parallel to the string and picking straight down or up.

Coming from a classical background, moving through the string at an angle provided the tone, as well as being comfortable; image how uncomfortable it would be to tweak your wrist to hold your nail parallel to the string. When I started using a pick, it was comfortable to attack the string with the "flat" of the pick, moving parallel. But the tone sounded "shallow". So I started practicing with the side/edge of the pick and making more of a twisting motion with my wrist.

Now, I have no idea if what I'm doing is "correct" or a common practice. Thus I R Her 2 learn.

[MarkRhodes]

I mentioned this on the "Benson Picking" thread earlier but it rates a quick word here. I emailed Corey Christiansen over the weekend to ask about his picking. He said he's asked about it all the time. He has long arms and started out wearing his guitar high, so his hand was 'below" the strings, so he reversed the angle of his pick. He later heard this was Benson picking. He said he gets most of the motion from his radius and ulna (-the long bones running down from the elbow to the hand). I found that interesting.

Here's a live clip of Corey playing Hendrix's "Little Wing."

[Flat5]

Am I missing something here? Doesn't Tuck Andress play exclusively with his fingers?

[Stanford J17]

YEah.
That Andress article is very suspect. Especially when it's clear Andress was never a great picker himself...Blind leading the blind yet again

Be careful, what you are saying!

Have you ever heard him with a pick?
I guess not... so what's "clear"??
Clear is, that you shouldn't comment on his pick-playing the way you did!

If a guy who is known for paying very much attention to all the little details writes about himself, that he is still better with a pick then with fingerstyle, you should trust him...

And if you don't know how good Tuck is in fingerstyle, then ... forget it!!

[pkirk]

I mentioned this on the "Benson Picking" thread earlier but it rates a quick word here. I emailed Corey Christiansen over the weekend to ask about his picking. He said he's asked about it all the time. He has long arms and started out wearing his guitar high, so his hand was 'below" the strings, so he reversed the angle of his pick. He later heard this was Benson picking. He said he gets most of the motion from his radius and ulna (-the long bones running down from the elbow to the hand). I found that interesting.

I've talked to Corey a lot, he taught at the music school in the university I work for. He told me the same thing. However, he never advocated that style, at least to me, and when I took a few lessons from him and asked him specifically about benson picking/rest strokes, and improving my right hand, he never advocated Benson picking as the way to go, but focused on other issues (eg upstrokes). None of his students at the music school here converted to this picking style, and a few of them are monster players. I could be wrong, but my guess is that he doesn't view converting to Benson picking as a meaningful part of his teaching approach, and he's someone who has thought a lot about teaching.

[ecj]

If a guy who is known for paying very much attention to all the little details writes about himself, that he is still better with a pick then with fingerstyle, you should trust him...

I'm not sure where you got this. In the article itself Tuck admits that he never got very facile with a pick and couldn't play the "blazing" Benson lines.

The article is a good jumping off point, but his actual description of the oscillation motion doesn't really resemble Benson's picking approach that much. There are better ways to learn the technique out there.

[MarkRhodes]

I've talked to Corey a lot, he taught at the music school in the university I work for. He told me the same thing. However, he never advocated that style, at least to me, and when I took a few lessons from him and asked him specifically about benson picking/rest strokes, and improving my right hand, he never advocated Benson picking as the way to go, but focused on other issues (eg upstrokes). None of his students at the music school here converted to this picking style, and a few of them are monster players. I could be wrong, but my guess is that he doesn't view converting to Benson picking as a meaningful part of his teaching approach, and he's someone who has thought a lot about teaching.

You know more about Corey and his teaching than I do. I'm sure you are right about this. He said he did get asked about it a lot, though. I don't know if that's from students or guitar players who come to his gigs. Either way, I don't think this is central to his teaching. It sounds more like something he happened into and had no idea it was what George Benson did or that there was a name for it.

[MarkRhodes]

The article is a good jumping off point, but his actual description of the oscillation motion doesn't really resemble Benson's picking approach that much. There are better ways to learn the technique out there.

I never felt sure I understood those descriptions the way they were meant. (I've found that many things on the guitar are easier to show than to describe.)

[cosmic gumbo]

actual description of the oscillation motion

I remember about 30 years ago or so, reading regularly in guitar magazines about an advanced picking technique that was being called "circle picking". The motion described was about using your pick, gripping fingers, and wrist, and picking in a clockwise rotating manner that resembled stirring a teenie-weenie little cup of coffee.

[pkirk]

You know more about Corey and his teaching than I do. I'm sure you are right about this. He said he did get asked about it a lot, though. I don't know if that's from students or guitar players who come to his gigs. Either way, I don't think this is central to his teaching. It sounds more like something he happened into and had no idea it was what George Benson did or that there was a name for it.

yeah, that's what I understood too.

[MarkRhodes]

I remember about 30 years ago or so, reading regularly in guitar magazines about an advanced picking technique that was being called "circle picking". The motion described was about using your pick, gripping fingers, and wrist, and picking in a clockwise rotating manner that resembled stirring a teenie-weenie little cup of coffee.

Funny stuff, as usual. I think Howard Roberts talked about "circle picking." (Docbop or Monk, among other GIT alum, would know more about this.) I could never make much sense of the description.

[ecj]

Funny stuff, as usual. I think Howard Roberts talked about "circle picking." (Docbop or Monk, among other GIT alum, would know more about this.) I could never make much sense of the description.

Yeah, the whole "circle picking" thing is another ballgame. I can do it - not that well, but I understand the motion. It always seemed way to delicate to me. I'm not sure how anyone can get a groove going with their finger joints like that.

Jody Fisher demo's it on some of his instructional vids, and it obviously works for Kenny Burrell.

[MarkRhodes]

Yeah, the whole "circle picking" thing is another ballgame. I can do it - not that well, but I understand the motion. It always seemed way to delicate to me. I'm not sure how anyone can get a groove going with their finger joints like that.

Jody Fisher demo's it on some of his instructional vids, and it obviously works for Kenny Burrell.

Thanks, Evan. The last thing I need now is another picking obsession! ;o)

[ecj]

Thanks, Evan. The last thing I need now is another picking obsession! ;o)

I've given up all other approaches to using the pick. Sometimes you just have to make choices.

[Groyniad]

I've given up all other approaches to using the pick. Sometimes you just have to make choices.

i think you're making exactly the right one

there was a line about looking for a door rather than just continually bumping your head against a wall - i've been bumping my head against that wall for a very long time

i've done countless be-bop style gigs with ultra fluent horn players desperately plucking and hitting away - gradually becoming able to get through bright tempo tunes - but sounding crap (to my own ears anyway), and feeling very stressed out.

finally found the door a couple of nights back - now i've given up hitting/striking/plucking the strings and i push and pull on the pick and let it play the note for me in its fabulously reliable and musical way.

i don't want to gush (do i?) but shiiiiiit my goodness gracious me

you can either try like hec to refine a terrible technique (string striking with angled pick to take the edge off) - or you can throw away all your rigid picks and start using the flex in your pick to pull or caress the sound out of your guitar.

how good string strikers can make themselves sound is a testament to how much work a person can put into this sort of thing if they're determined enough

if you've played a lot of guitar already - and i would think even if you haven't and you're just really into music - you only have to listen to george benson playing the guitar to know that he is playing it right and finding it genuinely easy and everyone else is struggling more or less successfully. this is a very strong claim. but i do think its obvious. i hate pop music - including rock music etc. etc. - i like jazz music and 'classical' music. play me benson doing anything and its obvious to me he has a better feel than anyone else. at a push - you can tell from the refrain of breezin' for god's sake. he is just that good.

so the only argument to the conclusion that THE BEST way to pick is the way he does it - IS HIS PLAYING - how it sounds/feels. the point is - the other great players would be even greater if they had his physical command of the instrument. they obviously don't. they would all like to have it - though most would be happy to admit that they were too invested in their own way of playing to give it up now....

this is as good an example as i've found (i only discovered his stuff 6 months or so ago)

[destinytot]

Thoughts/observations on Sean's picking technique?