How do I gain the speed to pick blazingly fast?

**mr. beaumont** · 05-14-2014, 04:24 PM

Why? Jazz isnt state required 9th grade Algebra.

**Jonzo** · 05-14-2014, 04:36 PM

You will choose your ultimate goal ("I wanna play like Joe"), but a good teacher should be able to map an efficient route.

"Sowhatyawannalearntoday" is the call of the teacher who is not invested in maximizing your progress.

C'mon Mr. B., you know this.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-14-2014, 04:43 PM

I don't know if I do...

First of all, I'd never let a student get away with a half assed goal like that. But maybe we're into another thread now...

**Jonzo** · 05-14-2014, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

First of all, I'd never let a student get away with a half assed goal like that.

Exactly!

**mr. beaumont** · 05-14-2014, 04:53 PM

Double post...

**targuit** · 05-14-2014, 05:21 PM

Interesting discussion. I think being a good guitar teacher involves communication skills, guitar technique, reading notation generally, and an interest in developing talent. In my past as a callow youth (twelve years old) I studied classical guitar with the founder of the state's Classical Guitar Society, Hibbard Perry. Mr. Perry could acquit himself in many styles. He did not teach me much about theory as much as technique, scales, and sight reading and how to work on a piece. Beyond that, I am self taught. As regards teachers, I believe their most important role is to lead the student to a good foundation. But beyond a certain point, I think it is up to the student.

I still feel like I learn from teachers, but today that would be Martin Taylor, Howard Alden, the late Joe Pass and Jimmy Foster, and last night, Chuck Wayne. In other words the teachers I listen to today are the masters of the past and present. I find that musical or audio thought is much faster than reading music or needing to have an explanation from a teacher. In fact, the most effective method for me today is watch a video of the player executing his arrangement. In effect if I can hear it, I can play it. The visual is just the icing on the cake. And as Jack and others have noted, it does not matter a whit whether Joe Pass could explain his technique, though the "instructional" videos I have see of his are informative and indicate a fairly sophisticated knowledge of theory, or at least what is necessary to explain what he played intuitively.

I do believe that few teachers reveal all their "secrets". After all, I have mine, too. But I think that is the result of years of dedicated playing and study of classical and jazz. I think Martin Taylor is one of the finest teachers I have 'studied', though his method is more one of executing a performance of a song and then making insightful comments about his approach to playing solo chord melody arrangements. And Jimmy Raney is an example of a deep thinker who has much more to impart imo than Pat Martino.

As regards "learning to play very fast", I find the whole objective to be somewhat ridiculous. Learn to play well and eloquently. Play as fast as necessary. And I much prefer to hear Coltrane from his quartet days with McCoy Tyner playing ballads any day over the dreaded Giant Steps. (Before anyone goes ballistic, I hate that song and would never spend ten minutes trying to learn it. Not because I can't. Just my opinion.) And I can only stand Pat Martino for about five minutes and even at that I'm chomping at the bit to turn it off.

For one thing I prefer generally to play in a classical or hybrid style as regards picking, though when I use a pick, I have hybrid approaches (pleural). I believe you have to find your own way in this regard. My 2 cents.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-14-2014, 05:27 PM

Giant Steps is a blast. You should check it out.

As for wanting to play very fast being "ridiculous," was the JS lick in the OP ridiculous? So why is wanting to be able to play like that?

**targuit** · 05-14-2014, 05:30 PM

And Jack Zucker, forgive me if I ask an irrelevant question. But if you had the honor to interact with Joe Pass, I have a question that only someone who knew him could answer. "How tall was Joe Pass?" I am just curious is all.

Jay

**targuit** · 05-14-2014, 05:39 PM

Hey, Jeff! I like Johnny Smith. Last night I did an arrangement of What Are You Doing For The Rest of Your Life from his solo versions. To tell you the truth, as I just listened to the clip in the OP's thread, I did not hear anything I can't play. It's not that there is anything inherently wrong with playing fast, but rather that to me it is about playing well. Anyone can learn to play fast tempos. It is about the quality of what you play. Of course, I tend to have a bias towards ballads and medium tempo songs because I love lyrical playing and couterpoint.

And how many of your audience call out requests for Giant Steps if they are not wanna be guitar or horn players? Listen to Coltrane's playing with Johnny Hartman.

Jay

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 05-14-2014, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

As for wanting to play very fast being "ridiculous," was the JS lick in the OP ridiculous? So why is wanting to be able to play like that?

I took that lick as the "shiny stocking" being tugged off.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-14-2014, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Hey, Jeff! I like Johnny Smith. Last night I did an arrangement of What Are You Doing For The Rest of Your Life from his solo versions. To tell you the truth, as I just listened to the clip in the OP's thread, I did not hear anything I can't play. It's not that there is anything inherently wrong with playing fast, but rather that to me it is about playing well. Anyone can learn to play fast tempos. It is about the quality of what you play. Of course, I tend to have a bias towards ballads and medium tempo songs because I love lyrical playing and couterpoint.

And how many of your audience call out requests for Giant Steps if they are not wanna be guitar or horn players? Listen to Coltrane's playing with Johnny Hartman.

Jay

I love that trane with Johnny Hartman record. But I love steps too.

A tune doesn't have to be an audience request to be a hell of a lot of fun to play...btw, I'll often do it as a mid tempo bossa. Or a slow deconstruction with a little free improv...

but anyway...now were reaaaaaly off topic.

back to the OP...did you get out the metronome yet? Maybe make a video? There's a few people in this thread (not me) who can play damn fast...I've heard em. They know how to get there.

**omfgzeroftw** · 05-15-2014, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

back to the OP...did you get out the metronome yet? Maybe make a video? There's a few people in this thread (not me) who can play damn fast...I've heard em. They know how to get there.

Well I looked up a metronome on the internet and it went to 208, I struggled at first but got it after a minute or so. I did 8ths on a major scale in root position. So I dropped the metronome to 100 and worked my way up to 120 doing 16ths. It's a bit sloppy and I'll probably have it down tomorrow, but any faster than this and there was just no way.

**3625** · 05-15-2014, 02:34 AM

Originally Posted by omfgzeroftw

Well I looked up a metronome on the internet and it went to 208, I struggled at first but got it after a minute or so. I did 8ths on a major scale in root position. So I dropped the metronome to 100 and worked my way up to 120 doing 16ths. It's a bit sloppy and I'll probably have it down tomorrow, but any faster than this and there was just no way.

Cool - looks like you've got good overall technique - IMHO you just need to tighten up the time a bit - get under the beat, not slipping around on top of it.

Your right hand technique reminds me of Andreas Oberg, so here's a link to this lesson of his, demonstrating how to build speed and play fast tempos if that's any help.

Technique Part 1 | ArtistWorks

**omfgzeroftw** · 05-15-2014, 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by 3625

Cool - looks like you've got good overall technique - IMHO you just need to tighten up the time a bit - get under the beat, not slipping around on top of it.
Technique Part 1 | ArtistWorks

Thanks. I'll keep that in mind, I'm going to start doing this every day. It seems like a good way to get better at what I want to do. I probably should have done that at 220 and I would have had more control than I did.

After sleeping on it, I definitely should have gone a few clicks lower than I was. That video was a bit sloppy.

**tamblerg** · 05-15-2014, 08:41 AM

Do not miss Speed Picking by Frank Gambale (1985/1994 Hal Leonard and video). He shares his own experience as far as the movements of the picking hand is concerned. Two big messages in there: relaxation and avoid movements that prevents your picking hand from aquiring speed.

**eddy b.** · 05-15-2014, 09:41 AM

Mr. Beaumont, aka Jeff Matz thats a FUN version of Giant Steps to listen to!!! Thanks for posting!!!

**Reg** · 05-15-2014, 09:51 AM

hey omf...

I checked out your Vid... I personally see a few things that are getting in your way, both hands, arm, and generally approach to practice material. Maybe we should PM as compared to posting responses... I'm OK with anything.

**AlsoRan** · 05-15-2014, 03:41 PM

[QUOTE=Stumpy;424961]Why DO you all have this pointless obsession with playing fast? Do you want to finish the song/piece before the rest of the band? Isn't being the fastest(insert your axe)-ist like being the fastest f***? If you played classically it would be an unspoken prerequisite...

[QUOTE]

Ha! Ha! I knew someone would complain. You did not let me down Stumpy!

1) In my case, I love fast songs. I am pretty docile, reserved, and settled by nature. Fast songs are like caffeine and is the reason I listen to music - they are a "pick-me-up."

2) If the band takes off, I want to be able to take off with them and "take flight." It is said that when everyone takes of running and you are always the one left behind, you either get faster, find slower friends to run with or quit trying. I don't want to be the one left behind

**jasaco** · 05-15-2014, 04:55 PM

Why speed? Sometimes you need or want to play a quick double-time run to add interest and excitement and perk the listeners' ears up a bit. Speed isn't always about playing all 8th note solos at 250 bpm (but sometimes that can be fun and even necessary). Bottom line is that the ability to play fast is as important to a guitarist (not just jazz cats; listen to some classical or flamenco guitar too - an of course, rock guys) as it is to a violinist. It has to be part of your technical capabilities. How and when you use it, and how tastefully is up to you (and sometimes up to the composer instead!)

**henryrobinett** · 05-16-2014, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Not saying you're lying but if you studied with Nunes for 2 years and only came out of it with 7 major scale patterns that says way more about you than nunes. It's the students responsibility to direct his own course of study.

You're making the case that a teacher should be like a mother bird, chewing and partially digesting the worms before feeding it to the helpless children. I disagree with that premise.

Ha! I never said I never got anything out of it. I got plenty. That's why I stayed. But he didn't TEACH anything. You played with him. That was great. I learned some stuff by osmosis. But he NEVER said, "play this over that" or this is why. He gave me a fingering for the whole tone scale.

I'd back off on making assumptions about what something says more about. You say it says more about me. You don't know anything about me, my study, how serous I was or am. Don't you make those kinds of assumptions. Unless you were Al Fuller and drove with me down to those lessons every week, or one of the other students, we can't evn discuss what happened in those classes, because you don't know.

I'm not making the case for a motherbird -I'm making the case for being a TEACHER. I'm a TEACHER. It's my responsibility to TEACH. Not just to let the student hang out and groove with my vibe. I taught a seminar with the great pianist Benny Green. OK, I assisted him ad co-taught some at The Brubeck Institute. He wasn't exactly like that, but he wasn't a TEACHER either. I mean he was very vague and zen like. But when asked direct questions like, "What did you do to develop your style?" or "What did you practice?" he would never answer. As if he was afraid of giving something away. There are guys who are very proprietary and secretive. I know that. I'm not talking about that.

Many guys who really play, don't know how they do what they do. They might not have a common language for it. They might be able to show you how they pick, sweep pick, or what they do to get their tone. But dissecting the music, they're lost. Yet they can play it. Other guys can't play it but they know what it is. You don't have to BE Coltrane to know what he's playing, or know about what he's playing or to teach others how to play stuff like he played.

Holdsworth has no idea. He doesn't even know what the names of the chords are he plays. Bireli Lagrene the same way. Would I like to hang out with them and pick their brains? Of course. But they're not teachers.

**Kiefer.Wolfowitz** · 05-16-2014, 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

A couple of things...

I wish could define "can't play," because the amount of guitar teachers I've met who were terrible players is pretty small. Maybe in a big city with lots of competition these things have a way of self-adjusting?

Not every teacher is right for every student when it comes to private lessons. It's completely plausible that guitarist A could learn a bunch from a particular teacher and guitarist B, for a variety of reasons, would not.

A teacher needs to be able to do* what they're teaching, and be able to relate it. This doesn't really mean they have to be a "great" player--however we measure that. It's important (and I say this as a teacher) that a teacher does two things: Knows their limitations and that they are not afriad to refer a student elsewhere when they cannot be of help.

*sometimes technique and knowledge are interrelated, sometimes not as much. I learned most of what I know about improvising from a piano player. He couldn't play the guitar a lick. (Maybe that's why I'm messed, up, who knows) My point being he was a fine teacher for that because he had the knowledge and was a great improviser--on piano. He would not have been a good person to go to if I needed help with my picking technique.

Not all teachers are great for all things. I know my strengths and I know what I have no business teaching.

Mr. Beaumont,
I just want to thank you for being kind and helpful with your comments here, just as you are in other places.
I think that this site would function even better if most of us would emulate your tone in responding to the substance of others' remarks with respect.
Sincerely, KW

**Jonzo** · 05-16-2014, 10:18 AM

Yeah, I was surprised to read that even university jazz professors "can't play".

Tough crowd.

**3625** · 05-16-2014, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Richb

Professor's, adjunct Professors, Masters degrees etc etc. These are mostly euphemisms for "CAN"T PLAY"

An analysis of the jazz guitar style of Lenny Breau : late 1960s | Australia & New Zealand Music Research

**jzucker** · 05-16-2014, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Jonzo

If these words come out of your teacher's mouth, RUN!

run from Pat Martino ? Jazz isn't rocket science. I can teach you all the jazz theory you need to know in a day. The rest you can derive. Any good jazz teacher will tell you this. The ones that don't insist that great players aren't necessarily good teachers and want you to be their student for years.

Rick Stone and I were just discussing this. His philosophy (shared amongst many great players and teachers) is that the best jazz teacher gets you on your feet and to the point where you're not dependent on a teacher.

Sorry but jazz isn't like high school science. I hope you get to the point in your playing where you realize that one day.

**jzucker** · 05-16-2014, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

I'd back off on making assumptions about what something says more about. You say it says more about me. You don't know anything about me, my study, how serous I was or am. Don't you make those kinds of assumptions.

Calm down.

i wasn't making any assumptions about you but I have heard your clips and am familiar with how you play. But that has nothing to do with my comments. Regardless of how you play, if you don't get something out of a teacher who is a great player it is your fault. As I said, martino wasn't a mother-bird style teacher and yet I learned a huge amount because I took it as my responsibility to "get" from him and not passively sit back and require him to "teach" me.

If you want a "teacher" there are plenty of great teachers at local music stores and colleges but few of them have the command over the instrument of someone like legrene, martino, wes, benson, metheny. But you have to be self motivated to get something out of studying with those guys.