Wes Montgomery's Guitar Strap strapped at the head stock guitar facing up at you.

[Patrick2]

According to Joe Pass biography (available on line), his last performance was May 7 of 1994. D. May 23 1994.
He was a trooper to the end..and imagining the pain he was in..he still tried to play.

He was diagnosed in May of 1992, and continued to play until early 1993.
That clip (above) is dated 1992.

I don't think any of us would be up to it, facing that kind of life changing event.

I don't know, Daniel. Like so many others, the guitar was Joe's life. I tend to believe that life for Joe, towards the end of his . . . would have been empty if he wasn't making music, as hard as it must have been for him to do so. I always wanted to believe that Joe died with his guitar in his hands and a cigar in his mouth. RIP, Joe. Or, as we say in Italian . . Ah Buon Anima Guiseppe.

[3625]

Does the Wes method increase the chance of warping the neck? I think I read that somewhere. I'm guessing compared to the (now) standard way of using a strap that the Wes method would better at distributing the weight on your left shoulder, or would that be incorrect?

[Daniel Kuryliak]

Does the Wes method increase the chance of warping the neck? I think I read that somewhere. I'm guessing compared to the (now) standard way of using a strap that the Wes method would better at distributing the weight on your left shoulder, or would that be incorrect?

There are as many schools of thought on that as schools of jazz.

An L5 (based on the weight of my Terada made Epiphone Broadway Elitist (which is basically a copy
of the L5 dimensions, wood, neck and weight) is 7.75 lbs. Compared to an LP that is about 9-10lbs
and sometimes approaching almost 11 lbs.

The weight of the guitar is distributed at 2 points on the strap pins and about 1/2 per strap pin.

Whether you choose to wear the guitar (on a strap) suspended from a pin on the bottom of the neck
heel or at the headstock, it really doesn't make any difference on the weight distribution of the other
1/2 of the guitar weight whether at the heel, on the upper treble bout like some have, or right at the headstock IF the weight is distributed evenly.

The electronics (pickup, pots and tuners amount to about 1.5lbs (I know, because I built 3 LPs myself
(see my profile albums) and weighed each item separately and together).

So if you take the basic 5.5 lbs of a L5 (maple back/sides and the carved spruce top), depending
on your style; if you lean the guitar down off a shoulder strap, 2.5lbs of guitar wood + neck pup, tuners (Kluson deluxe wafflebacks in the case of the L5), add about 1.5lbs to the front part of the strap. ..about 4lbs.

Not significant in causing any problems for an 5 piece constructed L5 neck, maple/walnut/maple/walnut/maple, as that combination makes a neck so strong that a tank could practically drive over it without breaking it..(figure of speech here of course).
With the strongest method of neck construction, thanks to the genius of Lloyd Loar AND the Gibson
adjustable truss rod system..there is NO DANGER OF WARPING THE NECK....IMO

What can, and does happen is that the strap at that position flexing the neck to some degree, depending on string guage, (Wes used Heavy guage flatwounds .013 to .053 string diameter),
the chance of detuning a string from flexing would be negligible.
Tuning up for him, on the high e or b would be a standard routine anyway between numbers depending if his ear thought some string was out of tune.

The other consideration on some Gibsons, due to the construction of ALL MAHOGANY necks,
(not the scarce Honduras wood of McCarty era Gibsons), but weaker plantation grown, or south American Peruvian Mahogany of today's factory output, is that it is not as DENSE between the wood fibers... subject to breaking at the scooped out hollow for the truss rod, between the nut and the tuners .... for the low E and high E.

String tension 101
http://www.guitarstringdepot.com/sto...098150560.html

So assuming Wes played a similar set of XL EPN22 jazz mediums (013 to .056) pure nickel flatwounds for that nice bassy sound of his bass string Octave sound ....(1st and 4th finger on octave low/high notes and muting the other strings with his index finger for his signature sound),
....and the total open string neck tension of all 6 strings be = 192.56 lbs + the weight of his left hand, it would be add some significant shoulder weight to him.

But he usually/sometimes played sitting down with the shoulder strap on, so that would pretty much cancel out any real serious guitar weight on his shoulders, so basically..
in Wes' case......it was just to steady his L5 for a more comfortable neck position while playing.


Guitar Weight distribution
As far as weight distribution on the shoulder, it all depends on:
1) the type of strap used and the should pads on strap +the width of the the shoulder pad
part of the strap
2) players shoulder anatomy
3) angle of guitar neck in relation to shoulder
4) additional weight of fretting hand while doing fret manipulation...
ie: whether thumb is sliding back and forth easily on a fast neck like the L5,
or slightly resting along the edge of the FB while sliding the fretting hand around..
to position fingers for scale runs or chording techniques..

Attachment 9078

[Patrick2]

I'd tend to agree with what Daniel said regarding the neck warping because of the Wes style of strap. The only way I could see that as a possibility, would be if you were to soak the neck over night in warm water, then take it out, put the strap on it and play it in a room heated to 180 degrees F. . . . then move to another room tempered at 70 degrees.

But, on a more serious note . . there are just way too many variables associated with what would and wouldn't cause neck warping, it's utterly unpredictable . . unless intentional.

[Daniel Kuryliak]

<Attempt at humour censored by the forum police>

5 layers of bonded hardwood them a ebony FB glued to that...chance of anything moving is EXTREMELY slim..
that is why you pay BIG BUCKs for the L5..

[3625]

Patrick....I prefer to soak my necks in a nice soothing hot tub with a couple of "rented" young babes and lots of
liquid refreshment..if Hugh Hef can do it at 85..why shouldn't I give it a try? LOL!

can we keep loser sleaze comments like this out of the forum?

[Daniel Kuryliak]

can we keep loser sleaze comments like this out of the forum?

Good to see that the forum police are alive and well. I guess you can call me a "Dirty Guitar Player"..
I think Howard Roberts used that title on one of his albums.

[ChuckCorbis]

Good to see that the forum police are alive and well. I guess you can call me a "Dirty Guitar Player"..
I think Howard Roberts used that title on one of his albums.

This is 'The Jazz Guitar Forum'. For a moment I thought I was in Kansas and my dog 'toto' was barking. Great album by the way.

[GuyBoden]

I've been using a strap tied at the head stock for the last few months, I've played like this before, there's less weight on my shoulder. I play in a classical seating position with the headstock at my eye level.

[destinytot]

I've been using a strap tied at the head stock for the last few months, I've played like this before, there's less weight on my shoulder. I play in a classical seating position with the headstock at my eye level.

Hi! Can you recommend a particular strap (for an 18" archtop)? Cheers!

[GuyBoden]

I've been using a strap tied at the head stock for the last few months, I've played like this before, there's less weight on my shoulder. I play in a classical seating position with the headstock at my eye level.

Hi! Can you recommend a particular strap (for an 18" archtop)? Cheers!

I've never played or owned an 18" Archtop, so I wouldn't like to recommend a strap, you'll obviously need to try a few.

[Para]

I tried using my strap Wes' way years ago and understand his reasons. The L5 goes way out of tune quickly with this hook up though. Anybody else have a similar experience? You can't get that Freddy Green/Art Ryerson tilt any other way though. Seems like it only works when your sitting.

Wes Montgomery said in a video that he could tune the guitar perfect but half an hour later something else was going on.
I use this method on my ES175 and I've never had problems with the tuning.

[ChuckCorbis]

Wes Montgomery said in a video that he could tune the guitar perfect but half an hour later something else was going on.
I use this method on my ES175 and I've never had problems with. the tuning.

I wonder if Wes' mention of tuning issues was just him referring to the nature of the beast or if his ultra heavy flat round Gibson strings had an effect on stability. His gauges were 14, 18, 28, 38, 48, 58......that's a lot more poundage than even Pat Martino's set up of Flat wound 15, 18, 24, 32, 42, 52. George Benson's current set of flats is 12, 16, 21,32 42, 55.

[wesmont17]

...my 2 cents....I bought an L5 years ago, which was my dream guitar, and drilled a button hole (very nervously) on the heel of the neck. In a nutshell, it works great for standing or sitting.

P.S. I know the video when Wes talks to a piano player about the difficulty of tuning issues of the guitar, unlike a piano which is tuned every few months (if that). I think there are so many variables when it comes to staying in tune i.e. climate, humidity, string gauge, wood of the guitar, string height/length.....and the list goes on. In the end, guitarists will always have to tune and retune often...it's the nature of the beast IMO.

[ChuckCorbis]

...my 2 cents....I bought an L5 years ago, which was my dream guitar, and drilled a button hole (very nervously) on the heel of the neck. In a nutshell, it works great for standing or sitting.

P.S. I know the video when Wes talks to a piano player about the difficulty of tuning issues of the guitar, unlike a piano which is tuned every few months (if that). I think there are so many variables when it comes to staying in tune i.e. climate, humidity, string gauge, wood of the guitar, string height/length.....and the list goes on. In the end, guitarists will always have to tune and retune often...it's the nature of the beast IMO.

Piano's are tuned weekly in good jazz clubs. In the studio they are tuned daily.

[SuperFour00]

Piano's are tuned weekly in good jazz clubs. In the studio they are tuned daily.

Several of the pianists I work with have the tools and skills to tune a piano before the gig and even touch up the tuning on one of the breaks if necessary. The more a piano gets played, the faster it'll go out of tune, not just from use, but from worn components. Better pianos last longer between maintenance, of course. A tech should be doing regular upkeep on any instrument in a professional setting.

On that strap, I tried it that way on my L-5 and Super 400. It's great sitting down, since it mostly steadies the guitar, but useless standing up for me. I'd rather stand most of the time.

[wesmont17]

Piano's are tuned weekly in good jazz clubs. In the studio they are tuned daily.

Wasn't speaking of jazz clubs or studios....just a house piano that one uses to woodshed on....I would hope that a good jazz club would tune it daily (bet they do).

[ChuckCorbis]

Wasn't speaking of jazz clubs or studios....just a house piano that one uses to woodshed on....I would hope that a good jazz club would tune it daily (bet they do).

Thanks for your ideas. IMO, Wes was referring to the piano in a professional setting. Not some practice piano that is used daily by non-pianists for theoretical practice that is tuned annually. This thread is about Wes and his professional peers not students shedding in practice rooms.

[wesmont17]

Thanks for your ideas. IMO, Wes was referring to the piano in a professional setting. Not some practice piano that is used daily by non-pianists for theoretical practice that is tuned annually. This thread is about Wes and his professional peers not students shedding in practice rooms.

Wes was speaking of the instrument......A Piano....in general terms, Chuck.....does not go out of tune as often as a guitar.....is that debatable???



"Not some practice piano that is used daily by non-pianists for theoretical practice that is tuned annually." ----this makes no sense....didn't realize non-pianists practice daily....hmmm....i must be a non-guitarist lol

[ChuckCorbis]

The fact is professional pianists play pianos that are tuned often, if not daily. You said that pro pianists shed on pianos that aren't tuned regularly. That's what I'm debating. Yeah, musicians in general tend to tolerate them being out of tune in the shed, not dedicated professional pianists though. Again, thanks for the expansion of thought Wes 17. I will agree to disagree. No need for mud slinging. I started this thread as a discussion about strap position, not a debate about piano tuning. Sorry if I offended you. My perception of shedding on piano is that done by jazz musicians who are other than pianists for chord progressions. That kind of shedding. Meaning for music theory and chord progressions as is required by many music colleges. I think that's where the disagreement lies. A house piano that musicians work out theory and chords on. Usually horn players. Those pianos are out of tune but they are tolerated. On the other hand, I lived 3 blocks in Douglaston, New York from master pianist Claudio Arrau growing up. His 2 house pianos that he taught 8 hours a day on were tuned weekly. I spent many an afternoon listening to him yell at his students in multiple languages. Pretty cool dude though. He was always very friendly when he would take his walks around the neighborhood. LOL

[StringNavigator]

Material Properties vs the Condition of the Surrounding Air
The guitar is a victim to interactions between its material components and the condition of the surrounding air it is bathed in. All metal parts and strings and wooden components are affected by thermal expansion. Time-lapse photography could show the fluctuating dimensions and density in the wood of any guitar as the wood "breathes" with changes in air temperature and humidity. As air conditions change, tuning will fluctuate within a semitone. Even tuned pianos (horizontal harps...) alter their intonation if doors are left open, air-conditioning is suddenly turned on or it is moved or the vocalist decides to sit on the piano top.

No Rest
The metal strings are attached to metal tuners at one end and a metal trapeze tailpiece at the other. In between, they are stretched across a nut and a bridge that move with the vibrating, wooden top guitar-top that they rest on. The entire design is susceptible to minute fluctuation. It puts itself out of tune.

Wear & Tear
Tuning gears have lash and they slip over time. Never lubricate tuning gears. Bridges will move on you, the slot depth of the nut and bridge increase due to wear. The neck fluctuates, too. The metal truss rod dimensions and multiple metal fret wires change due to thermal expansion and contraction. Strings, themselves, corrode and wear and their elasticity changes with time. Unbalanced string tension due to variations in gauge, length, even fret-wear and flat spots on the strings account for many tuning problems. And be careful when adjusting the tuners so as not to "pull" against the neck, because you will end up "flat" every time. Wound or un-wound third? Do you bend your strings often? Do you squeeze the strings too hard with your fretting hand?

Equal Temperament Does Not Apply
But the most critical feature of the guitar is that it can never be tuned perfectly for the entirety of the neck. The overtones of any single string is similar to those of a wind instrument, and the Overtone Series is not in tune. It is hidden on a piano by the piano-tuner's art of Equal Temperament. It is compensated for in wind instruments by strategic valving. But it cannot be hidden on a guitar.

Tune Where You Play
Jumping between octaves will reveal the "slightly out of tune" character of the guitar. It cannot be avoided. The best tuning method, for a professionally set-up guitar, is to tune the strings in the position in which one is playing. Avoid using harmonics to tune because they are not in-tune with each other, anyway. Even the pressure of your fretting fingers will affect the tuning process. It's all a compromise, at best.

Perfectionism Kills
New or old, the guitar is not a perfect instrument. You will be disappointed if you seek perfect intonation with any instrument. Music is often the art of appearing in-tune. As Wes Montgomery said, "This instrument, the guitar, is never perfectly in-tune. You can tune it up perfectly and a half-hour later, something else is happening."
.
.
.

[StringNavigator]

Caveat: As an amateur guitarist, I have no need to stand while playing archtop guitar, anyway. Luckily, I'm not a "professional musician". My "legendary" stage life is now safely preserved on Kodak Instamatic Film in the basement - cut short by a bout of common sense. Saves paying for rehab. Not that a "professional musician" makes enough money for "professional help", anyway. I can take a pass and leave the standing for all the John Lennon's and Mariachi bands out there.

Tying to the headstock angles the fretboard perfectly for me. I don't think I'll ever use buttons again. Stability is better achieved with the strap tie point beyond the left hand than with the buttoned point on the upper bout near the center of gravity. May prevent Headstock Droop and Guitarist Hunch-Back Syndrome, too.

Because of this thread, I experimented with attaching my strap to the headstock, as illustrated by Wes Montgomery and many from his era. (Certainly a smarter generation of people.) Instantly, chords are easier to grip! Mickey Baker's long E form M7 and the 13-5-9 sound better than ever before. The F major Barre on fret one is far easier. I actually enjoy playing in the key of F, now. My fills and melodies between chords seem to roll out on their own.

I'm still making minute adjustments with the strap, but I don't think I'll ever return to the upper bout button again. The angle between the fretboard and my fretting hand seems to be ergonomically superior now. It's great for Chord-Melody Jazz Guitar. Perhaps, I'll buy a real one with the adjustable shoulder pad.

Anyway, it beats the need to appear "strap-less" or hanging around with an arch-topped hollow-body guitar hanging down at the knees... and of course, to never, ever get caught playing a guitar up high like Ed Grimley or with the neck up near or above 45 degrees.


REMEMBER ME!! WELL, I'M BACK, BABY...!

I guess it's peer pressure, like how everyone in the sixties was cow-herded into wearing pointy-toe shoes, tight pants, 'mokin' cigarettes, calling everybody "Baby!", and squirming in front of the TeeVee while wearing circulation stopping jockey undershorts. Too much compensation going on. Who needs the "Pimp-Look", anyway. Tie One On!


Better To Look Good, Than To Feel Good, Baby!

[Jonah]

Caveat: As an amateur guitarist, I always sit when I play archtop guitar, anyway.
Why would I ever want to stand and play Chord-Melody Guitar??
After trying the headstock tie, I'll never use the button method again.

It gives much more load to the neck, neck/body, headstock/neck joints even on relatively heavy archtops.

I guess Wes did just because when he began to play there was only one button on guitars (Martins even now stick to traditional one button conception) - and he got used to it.

I remember Beson in his memoires mentioned how he first saw a picture of this guy with guitar strapped like 'he was a cowboy' ...

[Littlemark]

Caveat: As an amateur guitarist, I have no need to stand while playing archtop guitar, anyway. Luckily, I'm not a "professional musician". My "legendary" stage life is now safely preserved on Kodak Instamatic Film in the basement - cut short by a bout of common sense. Saves paying for rehab. Not that a "professional musician" makes enough money for "professional help", anyway. I can take a pass and leave the standing for all the John Lennon's and Mariachi bands out there.

Tying to the headstock angles the fretboard perfectly for me. I don't think I'll ever use buttons again. Stability is better achieved with the strap tie point beyond the left hand than with the buttoned point on the upper bout near the center of gravity. May prevent Headstock Droop and Guitarist Hunch-Back Syndrome, too.

Because of this thread, I experimented with attaching my strap to the headstock, as illustrated by Wes Montgomery and many from his era. (Certainly a smarter generation of people.) Instantly, chords are easier to grip! Mickey Baker's long E form M7 and the 13-5-9 sound better than ever before. The F major Barre on fret one is far easier. I actually enjoy playing in the key of F, now. My fills and melodies between chords seem to roll out on their own.

I'm still making minute adjustments with the strap, but I don't think I'll ever return to the upper bout button again. The angle between the fretboard and my fretting hand seems to be ergonomically superior now. It's great for Chord-Melody Jazz Guitar. Perhaps, I'll buy a real one with the adjustable shoulder pad.

Anyway, it beats the need to appear "strap-less" or hanging around with an arch-topped hollow-body guitar hanging down at the knees... and of course, to never, ever get caught playing a guitar up high like Ed Grimley or with the neck up near or above 45 degrees.


REMEMBER ME!! WELL, I'M BACK, BABY...!

I guess it's peer pressure, like how everyone in the sixties was cow-herded into wearing pointy-toe shoes, tight pants, 'mokin' cigarettes, calling everybody "Baby!", and squirming in front of the TeeVee while wearing circulation stopping jockey undershorts. Too much compensation going on. Who needs the "Pimp-Look", anyway. Tie One On!


Better To Look Good, Than To Feel Good, Baby!

Looking good is stooooopud.

[2bornot2bop]

It isn’t supposed to work for you. It worked for Wes. Everyone is different.