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Bob, ever read anything Mingus had to say? He was no Mr. Personality, either. I think there was plenty of justifiable animosity in the 60s to 70s (can't say it's changed much)In the interviews I've seen, I've not seen any of the other jazz icons with the attitude that Miles had.
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12-29-2013 01:13 PM
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I went to one of his concerts almost fifty years ago at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium, and I felt like the guy was noodling the whole way through, at a volume that made Led Zeppelin sound like Chamber Music. It was horrible, and I walked out.
Then I went to another show, well, rather I was dragged there by a woman I was trying to get with. He was playing with Carlos Santana, another guitarist I can't begin to tolerate. I wanted to be with this woman so badly, so I spent four hours listening to this horror.
John is playing scales. That's it. That's all he does. I think he's the luckiest guitarist in the world, building a career on his practice sessions verbatim.
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not bad this John Mac Laughlin !
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I absolutely love John McLaughlin - I bought his instructional DVD a couple of years ago and it's basically his playing at that time with the music notation at the bottom of the screen. Lots of demonstration, little in the way of explanation. So you can copy him and figure things out for yourself.
I have to say that, its poor production notwithstanding, this album is a seminal masterpiece. Mixing Hendrix-esque vibes with Lydian riffing that more people would go on to associate more with Vai and Satriani - McLaughlin was there first! The title track is beautiful and euphoric...
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I just wondering if someone so can not stand a musican like Richb John McLaughlin, then why on earth can take any serious effort to get know and evaluate the musicians teaching material? I mean what is the chance?
Richb does not like JMs music, with other words that music does not mske any sense for him, and that is completely OK. All reasoning what tries to question the listener or compare Richb to John McLaughlin is void. The listener can have his opinion, even he is not a musician at all.
...however it is useful if the listener who are saying categoric statements knows his topic. My opinion that for example JMs impro on Good by Pork Pie Hat is the shortest and greatest solos not just in the guitar records, but all. Same goes to the very same LP for Blue and Green. Which is one of the best of all Blue and Green solos. In general, both the heads and solos are so soulful, so honest and so essentially destilled what is really rare. ...and actually in regard its unexplicable effect it is the closest to Miles's solos what I know.Last edited by Gabor; 07-29-2022 at 10:01 AM.
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Originally Posted by Guitarzen
Well said. The OP accuses JM of playing "soulless "white" music", yet JM was good enough for Miles Davis to have in his band.
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I can comprehend very little of JM's playing from a technical standpoint but his playing has always had a voice for me. The racial thing aside (the MD quote was cited from an unauthorized biography, btw) his playing is a very powerful human voice to me. It goes beyond "feel" for me. It is more akin to singing and outside the singing guitar sounds found in the blues per se. My 2 cents.
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If you mean the Miles quote in post no. 10, that was just a bit of fun I made up! (Can’t believe I wrote that 9 years ago!)
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Looking back over it, I think I was satirising RichB's remarks.
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To me he is a fast-thinker in musical first of all.. some people just have this ability.
Music is time in direct sense and we all have different feel of time.
Another thing is his aesthetics. I call it something like 'intellectual spiritualism'.
Hi is very positive and emotional. But this is rather in oriental way of understanding these words.. detached, sober.
I think is interest in oriental philosophy is quite logic.
And modality by the way fits it very well too as conception.
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I'm surprised JM is so polarizing especially on a jazz guitar site. I've been a fan since the Mahavishnu days and have seen him numerous times. One thing that's beyond dispute is that he's unique - there's no one else like him. I think the same can be said of all the greats. He's obviously not from the bebop tradition, though I'm sure he could play that way if he wanted. I don't listen to him when I want to hear bebop. I appreciate his compositions, awesome technique, the way he incorporates different cultural influences into his music and the caliber of the musicians that accompany him (Billy Cobham, Jan Hammer, Dennis Chambers, Joey DeFrancesco etc.) among other things.
Last edited by RobbieAG; 07-30-2022 at 07:22 PM.
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He is unique, to be sure. Whether you like him or not is up to you. I find some of his stuff I like, some stuff I don't. JM kind of wears me out fairly quickly, though, so I don't listen to a lot of him or even an entire album all the way through at once.
But to be fair, I have the same reaction to Pasquale Grasso, Coltrane, etc. I can listen to one or two songs, but eventually the relentless barrage of notes turns my ears off. Other people obviously don't have that experience and maybe just have superior mental endurance compared to me. Jazz has always had some fascination with chops and playing fast which I've never actually enjoyed for more than a few bars here and there. I have pretty much zero interest in tunes being played at 200 BPM. Oddly enough, I like Allan Holdsworth a lot and he certainly produced barrages of notes quite often.
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If
Everyone is controversial. People think that want they are hearing is in some way objective. Until a musician realizes that what they think is good and what they think is bad, only relates to their own voice, they will always be criticizing without an insight. Sound is just sound. What makes that sound important is what we bring to the experience. I have a bunch of reasoned arguments, because for a long time I was hoping to find the ideal in music. Plato is cool, but accepting myself as a part of an experience, is better. Originally Posted by RobbieAG
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This contains one of JM's best solos IMO. Of course it helps that the whole track is incredible.
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This is not John McLaughlin who is polarizing, instead people polarizing themself and each other nowadays. Originally Posted by RobbieAG
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Wow! I do love all musicians in this record, at least three of them are my hero, listen them thousands of hours. Originally Posted by James W
It inexplicable how Miles could manage them to humiliate themself, (and he himself) in such an extent.
Miles Davis - trumpet
Gary Bartz - soprano sax
John McLaughlin - guitar
Keith Jarrett - electric piano
Michael Henderson - bass
Jack DeJohnette - drums
Airto Moreira - percussions
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Imagine a cartoon character that makes the sounds that JM's guitar makes. It's not hard to do and highly entertaining IMHO. Originally Posted by James W
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That's an understandable reaction, perhaps. But you need to ask yourself why so many would seem to disagree with it. Originally Posted by Dolmance
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I agree with this. Well, said. Originally Posted by RobbieAG
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I think if the only thing JM did was play jazz he wouldn't be super famous. But it's sort of a small part of his output.
He should get a permanent gold medal for introducing the west to South Indian Carnatic music through Shakti. And listening to Shakti and then to other South Indian musicians, it seems like he found himself a place within a really difficult system. Along with combining some North Indian elements and probably changing Indian music forever.
I don't listen to his jazz music much at all and I get his limitations in that regard but I also consider him one of the greatest 'pure' improvisors in the world. He's not coming from a straight ahead place.
The way he develops this solo is amazing. Beautiful music.
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I really like that album Que Allegria. JM has his own way of doing it. This band iirc
This is no doubt posted above but I find it interesting early on his playing had a bit of Grant Green vibe to it
no idea who that rhythm section are, never hear of them
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its funny …. I kind of prefer the other Cellar Door discs with no guitar (I think Jarrett said that as well) that said he does kick the energy up a notch, but I think it’s clear he’s just sitting in. Of course that’s the performance that got edited into live evil. Originally Posted by James W
On the other hand JM on Jack Johnson, that’s my jam. Here’s a guy analysing JM’s comping on Right Off in depth and the man himself sent him an email. What a gracious dude!
Without the keys dominating that line up he was able to explore more space in the music
incidentally speaking of both recordings, sad to report that Mike Henderson passed away i think last week - great bass player and star in his own right. RIP
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Many people like such BS mostly... if I asked myself why every time I'd go crazy... it could be interesting from point of view of research on social pathologies maybe.That's an understandable reaction, perhaps. But you need to ask yourself why so many would seem to disagree with it.
Of course it does not relate to McLaughlin really - first of all because in his case 'many people' are not that 'many'.
Actually there are a few friends, a few forum members, a few well-known musicians whose views I know and relate to - those are the cases where I can ask myself this 'why'... but even if I do not find an answer I will not push myself to hard into investigating it.
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i think it’s more complicated - even if you don’t like his playing. In the 60s he was actually known as a feel guy. You can hear that in his studio work with Miles. Very tasty. Originally Posted by Dolmance
The story goes that in 1969 or something like that he learned to alternate pick and got swept up in the jazz rock arms race.
As for Miles’s part in this - he could have had George Benson or the pick of any of the other NYC bebop guys. Clearly he head something in JM that appealed. I think it was that he had one foot in the rock and blues sphere but also had some jazz chops, not that he was a great jazz player.
The stuff with Santana is not great.
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