Poll: How Fast Are You?

[ecj]

It can be done on the guitar...

[West LA Jazz]

Oh my good G-O-D!!

First of all thanks for the video.

You had to go and sic a monster on us did ya? Just after the 1:30 mark, Wynton uses circular breathing technique to hit a monster non stop chain of triplets that literally goes on (and seemingly without him taking a breath) for about 45 seconds of sheer musical sound.

Regarding speed and musicality.

It's simple physics really. The faster you go, the less time there is BETWEEN NOTES (for a human being -at least) to shape and emphasize accents (musicality) which needs to be conveyed to the end user (the listener).

I have never heard a guitarist play that fast and more importantly, with this kind of musicality over this particular song.

My wimpy and humorous excuse would be that Wynton as a trumpet player never has to use his weakest finger (the pinkie finger) in playing like the musical demon that he is. But the again I have a DVD where Scofield jokingly says that when he first heard George Benson play he said something like "Who's this guy playing Jazz like that with 3 fingers"!

I've wondered if the guitar was late to the "Jazz party" because technology (amplification etc) arrived too late to really get us a prominent seat at the table earlier on. And whether that in turn that drove talented musicians to seek out the piano and horn instruments as a matter of simple common sense and practicality.

I should add that guitar players have contributed or maybe created musical sub genres where speed for speed's sake is worshipped and supported with the almighty dollar by fans within these sub genres. To my ears the faster they go, the more 10 notes start sounding like one long hybrid note. The visual equivalent to me would be like looking at a giant caterpillar moving with all its spines and sections moving in choreographed concert so to speak). Weird analogy but that's what I see.

I'll wrap up with a sacrilegious statement.

I'll preface it to say that the giants of jazz guitar are loved worldwide. This is a fact.

However, as massive as the guitar's contribution has been to the jazz canon, our heroes (re: the giants of jazz guitar) are probably not looked upon (by the majority of jazz aficionados and lovers) in the same esteem as the giants of jazz piano, jazz saxophone and jazz trumpet. (Violin players, you're in the same boat as we are).

IMHO it is what it is, and we keep keeping on.

Thanks again for the video and don't burn me at the stake for my comments!

Cheers!

[West LA Jazz]

Two helpful articles on playing faster than you currently are...

http://lifehacker.com/learn-to-play-...-sl-1507526591

http://www.dickhensold.com/playfaster.html

[mikeSF]

I voted "less than 80bpm" so you will feel better about yourself.

[GuyBoden]

Trying to play things I hear faster.

1.) Get a friend to play a phrase/chord you don't know. (Start simply)
2.) You try to play it back instantly. (Persevere with this routine and as the years go by you hear faster.)

[mangotango]

This is timely - I'm supposed to be sitting in at a jam night tomorrow. My teacher is the MD and he thinks that the next stage of my development is playing with people I don't know. He'll be playing piano, and I'll get to play a few tunes with the regular band. The only thing is that he's tried to impress upon me that I need to be able to play up to speed. Of late, we've been working on Bebop heads, notably Yardbird Suite, Tenor Madness, Billie's Bounce, Ornithology, Groovin' High - with varying degrees of success. I was playing Yardbird up around 185 and he pushed it to 200. I was flying by the seat of my pants and just about getting by but it wasn't pretty.

Anyway, I thought I should practice away from my lessons and tried to use a play-along CD. The version of Yardbird Suite on that was at 225 and I struggled with much of the head, but could not get coherent ideas out when blowing over the chords. So I need to push myself to deal with this.

The tunes that I'm likely to be sdo are Yardbird, Autumn Leaves (thank you!) and Tenor Madness or Billie's Bounce.

So what's the worst that can happen? Drummer throws a cymbal at me?

Maybe getting my rear handed to me will be a good thing and spur me on to practice more and better. Let's hope that the "deep psychological scarring" option isn't on the table....

[ronjazz]

Try playing melodies and leaving space, don't even bother trying to play "fast", play music. Chops will come, but forcing the issue may well lead to physical problems or, even worse, focal dystonia. Take the Jim Hall approach; create melodic and rhythmical motifs, compete on a musical and artistic level rather than an athletic one.

Years ago, I became a producer/manager, and got into a situation with a very good jazz singer where I was hiring established names as guest artists. One was George Coleman, a great tenor player with ridiculous chops, who had been with Miles for a while. I had put the guitar aside and had pretty much no chops, but had to play the gig for some reason. I found myself playing with space and motifs, not trying to keep up with George or the other very fine players I had hired for the gig, and at the end of the week, as I was paying Coleman, he told me that my playing reminded him of working with Miles! I was also complimented during that week-long run by several other musicians who thought that my approach gave everybody a little aural break from the furious flurries of 16th notes pouring off the stage.

You can impress (or fail to impress) other musicians, or you can reach the "civilians", who actually pay to get in.

[JakeAcci]

I think that, if one's chops aren't up to the task, focussing on more melodic and sparse playing is a fantastic suggestion as a means to sound great on stage and avoid pushing for something that isn't at the time possible.

I also agree that forcing yourself into speeds you're not comfortable with is a great way to develop RSI-related problems, especially if the practice is done with a lot of tension.

However, I also think that, once one's chops are up to the task, the 'density' of a line or solo is a musical choice. I don't think playing fewer notes is necessarily more 'artistic' or 'melodic' than playing more notes, nor do I think that more sparse playing across the board sounds better, nor is it more likely to appeal to non-musicians.

Ego can be subtle: It's true that many musicians try to play dense, fast lines in order to prove their chops, and impress other musicians. That does not mean that playing dense, fast lines is devoid of musical or artistic value. In my opinion, trying to play sparse as a statement against musical athleticism is an equally non-musical and egotistical decision as is playing fast in an attempt to impress others. In both scenarios, the motivation for the density/sparseness is not musical (what sounds best) but related to personal value as perceived by others.

RonJazz, I know I'm arguing against a point that is not exactly the point you are making, but I feel this issue is important enough to put my .02$ in. Surely you don't think that playing fewer notes makes a musician more of an 'artist,' right?

[mangotango]

Ron

That's a great shout, and in places where I'm not up to playing with the fleet-fingered boys, I will be taking exactly that approach.

"Can't play fast...will not play loud".

[Vladan]

All good advice, but .... I need some speed! I figured all sorts of new lines (well, 2 or 3 actually), I hear them at speeds I can not play. I can almost play them at speeds of my past life lines, but that's not fast enough. I want all the old and new FASTER!.

IYKWIM?

[ColinO]

You can always tell when someone is trying to play faster than they can. It's a bad idea to test your chops on a stage. Mango - your teacher probably would not be having you along if he didn't think you were going to do just fine. His reputation as a teacher presumably is important to him so he would be bringing his best students, not ones that were going to make him look bad. So you should be confident that this is something that he thinks you can handle.

Go forth and wail.

[ronjazz]

I think that, if one's chops aren't up to the task, focussing on more melodic and sparse playing is a fantastic suggestion as a means to sound great on stage and avoid pushing for something that isn't at the time possible.

I also agree that forcing yourself into speeds you're not comfortable with is a great way to develop RSI-related problems, especially if the practice is done with a lot of tension.

However, I also think that, once one's chops are up to the task, the 'density' of a line or solo is a musical choice. I don't think playing fewer notes is necessarily more 'artistic' or 'melodic' than playing more notes, nor do I think that more sparse playing across the board sounds better, nor is it more likely to appeal to non-musicians.

Ego can be subtle: It's true that many musicians try to play dense, fast lines in order to prove their chops, and impress other musicians. That does not mean that playing dense, fast lines is devoid of musical or artistic value. In my opinion, trying to play sparse as a statement against musical athleticism is an equally non-musical and egotistical decision as is playing fast in an attempt to impress others. In both scenarios, the motivation for the density/sparseness is not musical (what sounds best) but related to personal value as perceived by others.

RonJazz, I know I'm arguing against a point that is not exactly the point you are making, but I feel this issue is important enough to put my .02$ in. Surely you don't think that playing fewer notes makes a musician more of an 'artist,' right?

I think that the ability to play fewer notes and successfully create an artistic and memorable statement can very well make a musician more of an artist, but the issue here is one of a relative newbie not falling on his face in public, as well as the fact that even the fastest players MUST be able to play slowly and sparingly for contrast and emotional range. And since my favorite players include chops-monsters like Martino, McLaughlin and Stern, I am well aware of personal style and its importance in expressing an artist's true soul, but each of these players has moments of sparse and spatial playing that are quite magical and evocative. And I will point out that Miles and Jim Hall were both involved in a lifelong "editing" process that pared away what they considered the extraneous to leave the essential. So, I think that your argument is absolutely on the money, but maybe slightly incomplete. In any event, it's a well-reasoned point of view that allows us to investigate the beauty of space in music, and to perhaps expand our own imaginations.

[coolvinny]

I have a very hard time believing the poll results. Two-thirds of the forum members can cleanly play 16ths over 100bpm? Either I am very slow, or there are varying interpretations of "cleanly" (does this mean only 4 notes or are we discussing numerous bars of such playing? I consider numerous bars to be the real test since tension often does not show up immediately if one just plays a flourish) and "play" (e.g.,are we talking about sitting on one note and repeating it?).

I top out around 104. Beyond that I have too much tension. Edit: and this would not be very musical. Some sort of chromatic or scale-ish pattern, but played over many bars and more like several minutes. If we're talking about speed to improvise musical ideas, I would be WAY SLOWER than 16ths at 104. Not even close to that.

It could well be that I am just a slow player. However I do recall one of my former teachers - a pro with many decades of jazz gigging experience - saying that a long, long-term goal to work to is 120bpm, and he couldn't play much faster than that.

[Vladan]

People are mixin up 1/16 and 1/8, I reckon.

[JakeAcci]

I have a very hard time believing the poll results. Two-thirds of the forum members can cleanly play 16ths over 100bpm? Either I am very slow, or there are varying interpretations of "cleanly" (does this mean only 4 notes or are we discussing numerous bars of such playing? I consider numerous bars to be the real test since tension often does not show up immediately if one just plays a flourish) and "play" (e.g.,are we talking about sitting on one note and repeating it?).

I top out around 104. Beyond that I have too much tension. Edit: and this would not be very musical. Some sort of chromatic or scale-ish pattern, but played over many bars and more like several minutes. If we're talking about speed to improvise musical ideas, I would be WAY SLOWER than 16ths at 104. Not even close to that.

It could well be that I am just a slow player. However I do recall one of my former teachers - a pro with many decades of jazz gigging experience - saying that a long, long-term goal to work to is 120bpm, and he couldn't play much faster than that.

based on my experiences, I think of a steady stream of 16ths at 100 or 8ths at 200 to be very accessible, normal mid tempo vocabulary. I don't think it's really considered 'up tempo' even until we're at 250 or above.

I took a few lessons from a real great guitarist who used to play here in Boston at Wally's, where there is a popular jazz jam session, right in between Berklee and the New England Conservatory. We were talking about technique and tempos and he noted that most guitarists he saw usually had their 8th note vocabulary fall apart at around 230 (16ths at 115)

The last two guitarists I have studied with regularly perform at tempos way above the 300 bpm mark, and execute their vocabulary quite well up there. That's not to say anything about my own abilities or lack thereof, at those tempos.

I believe making musical statements at higher tempos involves having pre composed cells and 'licks' to string together (that's what all of bebop is anyway) so it's not actually as if every note is truly 'improvised'

[ecj]

Conti advocates but says in the end, it's up to you and your individual comfort zone.

Regarding Joe Sgro, there have been too many people who mention his name with reverence for the stuff about him not to be true.

I did a little searching....

Oh, absolutely. I'm not doubting that he was a killer player, at all.

I just can't imagine what his "system" was because I've heard so many of his disciples and they all sound pretty different to me. Compare that to what we'd know about Benson if we only heard Norman Brown, Henry Johnson, Russell Malone, etc.

I'd love to hear a recording of him actually playing. Feel the same way about William Leavitt.

[mangotango]

You can always tell when someone is trying to play faster than they can. It's a bad idea to test your chops on a stage. Mango - your teacher probably would not be having you along if he didn't think you were going to do just fine. His reputation as a teacher presumably is important to him so he would be bringing his best students, not ones that were going to make him look bad. So you should be confident that this is something that he thinks you can handle.

Go forth and wail.

Colin

Thanks for your reassurance and I'm telling myself exactly that - after knowing me for a few years now and having seen me go from stumbling blues reject into someone who has a vague idea of what's going on, I don't believe that he'd put me in a situation where I would look a total idiot (unless I freeze up and sabotage myself, in which case it's of my own doing!!).

So, I tried again with the play-along CD and (having read the previous posts and especially the Hensold article) after spending some time doing SLOW practice, I found a better fingering for the awkward passages - and suddenly, I was keeping up better. Not flying along - yet - but much better. We'll see what tonight brings, but currently feeling happier about this.

[JakeAcci]

Sorry to be the constant naysayer, but these "underground" legendary names could never play man. If they could they would have recordings and would have actually "played" instead of getting into the disciple moulding biz. It's pretty much always the same. There are legions of these kinds of guys. None of them could play. And if any of their students could play it was because that student would have played with or without the lessons from the fake guru.

Rich I usually agree with your basic angles, here I don't.

Mick Goodrick is a good example - he has performed a lot and recorded a bit, and he's really one of my favorite players, but my understanding is he really doesn't get that excited about going on tours and hustling for gigs. He likes to work on his craft and share his knowledge.

Yeah sure a lot of times there are guys who were better at explaining than playing, but that doesn't mean it's true across the board.

Myself, I'm primarily a teacher (for 'beginners',) I don't have that much interest in recording albums and touring when I could stay at home, relax, practice, and then go share my knowledge and help other people expand their love of/skills within music. My playing suffers because I don't get 'performance practice,' but my decision to not gig or record much isn't because I don't think I'm good enough.

Here's a nice clip from a not-very-well-known old school guitar teacher/player:

[West LA Jazz]

based on my experiences, I think of a steady stream of 16ths at 100 or 8ths at 200 to be very accessible, normal mid tempo vocabulary. I don't think it's really considered 'up tempo' even until we're at 250 or above.

I took a few lessons from a real great guitarist who used to play here in Boston at Wally's, where there is a popular jazz jam session, right in between Berklee and the New England Conservatory. We were talking about technique and tempos and he noted that most guitarists he saw usually had their 8th note vocabulary fall apart at around 230 (16ths at 115)

The last two guitarists I have studied with regularly perform at tempos way above the 300 bpm mark, and execute their vocabulary quite well up there. That's not to say anything about my own abilities or lack thereof, at those tempos.

I believe making musical statements at higher tempos involves having pre composed cells and 'licks' to string together (that's what all of bebop is anyway) so it's not actually as if every note is truly 'improvised'

"I believe making musical statements at higher tempos involves having pre composed cells and 'licks' to string together (that's what all of bebop is anyway) so it's not actually as if every note is truly 'improvised'"



Based on what I understand Jazz vocabulary this is true.

As in..

Jazz licks (or licks in any idiom) = A language (where musical phrases are akin to words in a spoken language)

There fore...

Improvising = stringing together "words" of this language in question to make a series of creative "statements" during performance that is aurally pleasing to the ear?


Am I way off base here?


PS: Another almost unique thing to the guitar and other fretted instruments is how different fingerings are needed
to play the exact same idea in different sections of the fretboard. Which means prior practice to become comfortable executing an idea that would normally start on the first finger using the small finger which then would allow you to spit out that idea on stage on the fly.

[JakeAcci]

sure, I don't disagree with any of that.

[bako]

Fast lines (at their melodic best) are an expansion and ornamentation of simpler melodic motions.
I believe in improvisation but there are only so many ways to walk from my house to the Food Coop.

[GuyBoden]

there are only so many ways to walk from my house to the Food Coop.

We live in an infinite universe, with an infinite number of ways of going from point A to B.

[mangotango]

Ron

That's a great shout, and in places where I'm not up to playing with the fleet-fingered boys, I will be taking exactly that approach.

"Can't play fast...will not play loud".

...but did play lots. In the end I only did one of "my" tunes allotted, and even then in a different key to suit a singer - but I was asked to stay on the stand for another 9 or 10. So clearly, not that bad after all. Not "gonged off". In fact, after one solo, the bassist took a bar out to applaud politely. And I got asked back next month.

So, time to practice loads more tunes then - slowly and correctly first, then up the tempo when ready. I have learned that lesson now and it will stay with me.

[ronjazz]

Excellent. In a related story that came back to me, I remember auditioning to replace a guitarist in an organ trio, he was moving. The organist and drummer were both monsters with seemingly no limits, they had a huge memorized "book" of jazz, pop, r 'n' b and show tunes (in other words, no written music at all) and worked constantly 5-6 nights a week. I was "pretty good", but I didn't know a lot of tunes, so I played very sparingly, and learned as I went, meaning that I had to figure out the basic harmonic structure in 1 or 2 choruses. Again, I played sparingly, with occasional quick passages when I really knew what was happening. Both of them were impressed with my "taste", and I was hired, and stayed aboard for two years of the very best learning experience of my musical life, growing ever less tasteful, and learning hundreds of tunes. This was 45 years ago, and those guys are still among my favorite players ever, and we still keep in touch. So, keep on shedding, and don't worry about the Jazz Olympics, as it were.

[mangotango]

Yep, exactly that - I didn't know the tunes, I was busking my way through stuff and getting by using my teacher's iphone with i-realbook and my ears. This is the way forward, I guess - time to invest in the ipad that I've been promising myself....and lots of shedding.