Poll: How Fast Are You?

**Jazzpunk** · 04-21-2013, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Where have you read people on this forum suggesting that you "don't need to understand whats going on"?. As for playing by ear being BS and poopoo-ing the idea of going slow at first before speeding up, I really hope that most on this forum will disagree.

But I do get your "Devil's Advocate" role on this forum, and rather appreciate it. However in case some impressionable novice may be reading your posts, I would think it pertinent to not set the bar too high too soon (as regards reading and theory etc) as you will probably discourage them.

If you wanna preach to those who can handle the "truth" as you see it, you should maybe start your own Pro Forum for advanced players. (personal opinion)

I'd rather hear Reg's insights into what is needed to hang at an advanced/pro level than the emphatic, black and white, statements so often posted here by people who don't have the skill on the instrument to back it up. Truth be told, it can get very tiresome wading through all of the ego and posturing on this board to get to the real substance.

This is my personal opinion but I highly doubt anyone who is serious about getting somewhere on the instrument is going to agree with having pro players excluded from the conversation. We're lucky to have the few serious players on board that we have now. Running them off because you don't agree with them (based on what level of experience on the stage and instrument btw?) is not going to be welcomed by most here.

If you don't like his posts try the ignore function. If newbies are intimidated they should stay in the "getting started" section until they're ready for more complex ideas.

**princeplanet** · 04-21-2013, 10:59 PM

Most guitar players who like to play fast, that I observe locally, are sloppy, have always been sloppy and probably always will be sloppy. It's a pet hate. The horn guys or piano players have on average much crisper articulation. As guitarists we have to work harder. Reg has stated in a few posts over the months that it's ok if you haven't quite got something nailed under the fingers to play it faster than you can cleanly, as eventually the articulation will just clear up and it will all be fine. Fine for him maybe, but years of teaching and my own observations tell me different. Practicing sloppy will cement sloppy with most novice players. I don't want to even argue that, just want to offer this not -so -sagely (read: obvious) advice to those that probably need to hear it.

Happy to be shot down for it too.

Yours Sagely,

PP (Fighting the good fight for crisper articulation!

)

**AmundLauritzen** · 04-21-2013, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Most guitar players who like to play fast, that I observe locally, are sloppy, have always been sloppy and probably always will be sloppy. It's a pet hate. The horn guys or piano players have on average much crisper articulation. As guitarists we have to work harder. Reg has stated in a few posts over the months that it's ok if you haven't quite got something nailed under the fingers to play it faster than you can cleanly, as eventually the articulation will just clear up and it will all be fine. Fine for him maybe, but years of teaching and my own observations tell me different. Practicing sloppy will cement sloppy with most novice players. I don't want to even argue that, just want to offer this not -so -sagely (read: obvious) advice to those that probably need to hear it.

Happy to be shot down for it too.

Yours Sagely,

PP (Fighting the good fight for crisper articulation!

)

What you say is true. One should not generally not practice at a tempo where you can not hear all the notes clearly. But if you never push your comfort zone, you will not surpass it. What I've found to be most effective is to increase the tempo with 5bpm until I reach the point where I have to really concentrate to play it cleanly. Then I push it a little more until I stumble. Then I decrease the tempo back to my comfort zone and do the process again. You have to challenge your brain to stimulate growth. You have to briefly visit a tempo you can't play to get in the mindset of playing at that tempo.

My 2 cents.

**princeplanet** · 04-21-2013, 11:57 PM

Yes, I think I do that too, where you briefly try to do something outside the comfort zone in order to kinda "hear" it in your mind, which helps. In fact, I feel like that's the advanced way to play anything, like maybe Reg can always do. Visualize it, hear it in your head, and then wait for the fingers to catch up! But it's dangerous to pass on this as advice to people who don't have the technical facility to catch up.

I reckon that it may be common for very experienced players to have forgotten what it's like to have to struggle with their learning. This could be the reason many great players are lousy teachers. George Benson for example.....

**Captain Caravelle** · 04-22-2013, 12:05 AM

Which hand?

**Vashounet** · 04-22-2013, 01:55 PM

I've always struggled with technique.
To play fast, you need to master left hand technique AND right hand.
Or if one of two is sloppy, you will never get through this issue.

I never "trusted" my right hand and years of bad practicing just reinforced tension
and bad confidence.
Today I struggle to get things right and the bigger issue is to face my own believes:
"I can't play fast","Anyone who has never played guitar could tremolo faster than me",
"It will take years to catch up the level of good players".

I'd like to emphasize the psychological aspect, don't negate it.
Start by finding the good technique for YOU, the one that fits with your style, your way of playing,
the one that seems tensionless.
Then, start thinking that you can master it.
Whether it's for pure technique or the way of thinking it, never forget that:
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

**Stevebol** · 04-22-2013, 06:11 PM

I'm somewhere between slow as molasses and fast as hell.

**pingu** · 04-22-2013, 08:26 PM

To play fast, you need to master left hand technique AND right hand.

Cool .... that's what I've been doing wrong

**abracadabra** · 04-23-2013, 03:58 PM

I practice speed a fair bit. not obsessively, and rarely use the 'chops' I've developed in any musical context, but I find the ability to play faster has made me more comfortable at slower speeds than the 'max'. maybe that's just me.

**princeplanet** · 04-25-2013, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by abracadabra

I practice speed a fair bit. not obsessively, and rarely use the 'chops' I've developed in any musical context, but I find the ability to play faster has made me more comfortable at slower speeds than the 'max'. maybe that's just me.

Agreed. If you're playing 8ths at 150, but behind it all you have a 'mental metronome' ticking in 16ths, you can slip in the 16ths whenever you like, for as long you like, with total confidence.

TF · 04-29-2013, 05:16 AM

Music is whatever you want it to be.

I would be faster if I enjoyed listening to "fast" guitar playing. Something about the guitar makes me enjoy its sound at lower tempos. As a listener, I prefer high-speed virtuosity on other instruments - piano, sax.

I agree with whoever said that this is a guitar-centric obsession. Like, who is the fastest singer?

**Stevebol** · 04-29-2013, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by Thoughtfree

Music is whatever you want it to be.

I would be faster if I enjoyed listening to "fast" guitar playing. Something about the guitar makes me enjoy its sound at lower tempos. As a listener, I prefer high-speed virtuosity on other instruments - piano, sax.

I agree with whoever said that this is a guitar-centric obsession. Like, who is the fastest singer?

Fastest singer? This dude is pretty fast. Well it's rap but it still vocals.

**licksville** · 04-29-2013, 06:26 PM

Anybody know, using the ranges in the poll, about where Pat Martino would typically come in at on his up tempo stuff, for example Impressions?

Oh and, count me in the sloppy-no-matter-what-speed-I-play category.

**JakeAcci** · 05-03-2013, 09:00 AM

Martino's stuff is often high 200s. I'm sure there's some 300 stuff somewhere. The stuff I transcribed of him, Oleo, Impressions, was around 280 I believe.

**Vladan** · 05-03-2013, 11:02 PM

Another poll, no ofense ment to anybody,:

How many of you liked that Rusell Malone tune? From post 31 in this thread:

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...tml#post318829

While Hubbard and Martino tunes/ videos I found suerb, honestly, I think that Bumblebee at 600bpm was more musical than Russell Malone video.

**ecj** · 05-04-2013, 03:16 PM

Seriously? Malone is a world-class player.

**Vladan** · 05-04-2013, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by ecj

Seriously? Malone is a world-class player.

No doubt, but that particular recording, let's say it did not suit me at 4 o'clock, AM. Other 2 examples did.

**Nabil B** · 05-04-2013, 03:27 PM

As always, to each his own. I personally never dug Mc Laughlin and he's a world class player too.

**ecj** · 05-04-2013, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Professor Jones

As always, to each his own. I personally never dug Mc Laughlin and he's a world class player too.

Of course, people are welcome to like what the like. McLaughlin's not my favorite player, but he's an incredible musician, and I'd never talk trash on him.

I was taken aback by the sarcastic quip about the Flight of the Bumblebee exercise being "more musical" than some playing from one of the finest jazz guitarists on the scene today.

**ASATcat** · 05-24-2013, 04:07 PM

I have to work my butt off for what I can do.
For me it's all about melodic playing, that melody comes from hearing it and I don't hear most things as fast lines, I think lines like a singer, with breath, space and depth, more lyrical than pyrotechniques.

**ASATcat** · 05-26-2013, 02:37 PM

Russell Malone took Jim Halls spot playing with Bill Frisell, what a great show. A fast player and a slowhand, Russell was great but Bill simply enthrawled the audience. I wish there was some youtube of them.

**ASATcat** · 05-26-2013, 09:19 PM

I live in Julian Lage's hometown area and watched his progress as he grew up. Julian is easily in the same ballpark speedwise as Russell Malone and Berelli and most anyone, and he could do it at 12. No matter how technical and fast he plays he always looks like he's having the time of his life. That ease and joy of playing is his big non secret, It just amases me how he simply smiles through the hardest things. Relaxing is not easy for me. Julians a great role model for high octane playing.
And ease and enjoyment separates him from most anyone. Most people look like their in pain or deep concentration when blazing.

.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-26-2013, 09:58 PM

Can you actually hear Malone?

I swear whenever he and Green play together I can't hear him...ever hear their record "bluebird?" It's like Benny paid the engineer to turn Russell down...when you hear the ego in his playing, that doesn't even seem so far fetched.

**3625** · 05-27-2013, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by ASATcat

I live in Julian Lage's hometown area and watched his progress as he grew up. Julian is easily in the same ballpark speedwise as Russell Malone and Berelli and most anyone, and he could do it at 12. No matter how technical and fast he plays he always looks like he's having the time of his life. That ease and joy of playing is his big non secret, It just amases me how he simply smiles through the hardest things. Relaxing is not easy for me. Julians a great role model for high octane playing.
And ease and enjoyment separates him from most anyone. Most people look like their in pain or deep concentration when blazing.

I dig fast playing but only if the cat is calm, relaxed and in command of the music, like Julian or Martino. I think some listeners actually like the struggle that some players exhibit when playing really fast - some kind of coarse excitement they find thrilling, but to me it just sounds rough and unhip. Keith Jarrett's amazing at being able to be creative & inspiring over really fast tempos.