View Poll Results: What is the max speed at which you can play 16th notes *cleanly* ?
- Voters
- 318. You may not vote on this poll
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less than 80 bpm
44 13.84% -
80-100 bpm
37 11.64% -
100-120 bpm
63 19.81% -
120-140 bpm
84 26.42% -
140-160 bpm
34 10.69% -
160-180 bpm
25 7.86% -
more than 180 bpm
31 9.75%
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Ab, Bb, ... shouldn't it be just the same on guitar, as long as you do not hit open strings. Maybe you play it octave lower than sax/ trumpet do it originally?
BTW, I managed to memorize the 24 bars and can play them at about 1/2 original tempo (120bpm). Luckily, there's total of several bars of silence, pretty easy to memorize,
. 8 bars more and I can start working on speed, though I doubt I will ever make it past 160bpm.
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09-08-2016 06:24 AM
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I was wrong. Currently @ 168bpm and rising .... 180 does not seem very far (for memorized head of Donna Lee without much phrasing and finesse.) .
Originally Posted by Vladan
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When you finger a C on a tenor sax, the note it plays actually sounds as a Bb. That's what is meant by a 'Bb instrument'. Originally Posted by Binyomin
So when they play Donna Lee from this book, it will actually be heard in Ab.
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I've been told by working Jazzers you can gain the same dexterity by practicing/internalizing melodies that appeal to your ear that aren't necesarily scales. These often end up being part of your jazz vocabulary. So you practice the head of DONNA LEE you can break it up and execute fragments in just about everything you play and make it sound different, fresh and dare I say original. Originally Posted by yaclaus
Speed is such a difficult thing. I don´t want to practice technique exclusively, but I´m definitely not satisfied with my speed. I can do a d-major scale up and down in 16ths at 140 tops. I´ve played for many years and do have moments where I think - "will my technique ever improve?"
I have some Bireli tutorials and he talks about how he had an organized regimen of practice when he first started out. He also mentions that he put in a tremendous amount of work (hours logged) to internalize what he played and the fluidity with which he plays passages. He also talks about getting musical inspiration from everywhere including American country, funk and classical violin pieces.
MEDLEY / DONNA LEE
By Bireli Lagrene and Jaco Pastorius
Scroll to 4.40 mark for the start of DONNA LEE melody
PIANO INSPIRATION: Mirror image dexterity exercise inspiration
(CHICK COREA)
Scroll to 5.00 point for the mirror image ideas and passages. The 6.00 point more minus the discussion.
I’ve heard guitarists use short sections of this while improvising with great effect. It can really take the ear of the listener by surprise. Only thing is we guitarists are doing this with one hand. Take away is you can make a mirror image out of any complex melody that you love and make it sound different and strengthen your hand.
Finally, Chick Corea has a workshop video that talks about creating his own scales. Taking pieces of interesting melodies, committing them to memory and use them by stretching them out in repeating motifs. The video is locked on his workshop site otherwise I would share. But I’m sure you get the drift.
Last edited by West LA Jazz; 09-16-2016 at 03:17 PM.
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MIKE STERN says don't beat yourself up in your search for YOUR version of speed and complexity..
This is worth watching again.... it's regarding the technique that gets you wherever your "there" is.
"Technique (speed etc) is the players "letters in the alphabet" but it's not the poetry" - Steve Vai
https://truefire.com/steve-vai-guita...e/watch/v34050Last edited by West LA Jazz; 09-22-2016 at 08:30 AM.
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180 - no sweat Originally Posted by Vladan
200 - almost
210 - i think will be possible, but only time will show.
Again, all mechanic, no phrasing, no dynamics, almost strictly alternate ... Donna Lee starting top E string 15th frett ...
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Basically, I'm pretty slow! Another advantage of getting into the senior years… you're not expected to be a fast flippin' guitar player. I like ballads.
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Still @ 180 almost 200 in higher octave Originally Posted by Vladan
Also @ 180 almost 200 in lower octave
Can do it @ 200 combining the 2 octaves, for easiness factor.
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I used to be able to play mechanical exercises at 180bpm 16th notes, 200bpm at a push, but haven't done that for years, and would have to work my way up to it now, mainly as there are other more useful things to do.
i.e. how fast can you play every other octave within each of all 5 CAGED patterns of an altered scale up and down the fret-board?....as in not going fully up and down all 5 patterns in one go, but instead skipping every other octave within each pattern (played continuously), meaning you sometimes skip over 4 - 5 strings. Would be a while before I could do that at 180bpm 16ths!
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How fast should you play the Tennessee Waltz?
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16ths at 200 eh? Hmm, I'm gonna have to put in a few more hours of speed training to catch up to you guys.
Say, while we're on the subject, does anyone here think that typing "thequickbrownfoxjumpsoverhtelazydog" about a thousand times at world record pace will make me a better poet?
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It's a challenge for sure. Originally Posted by Binyomin
Playing the head is a really a great exercise.
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I wonder how fast is that in BPM, to sound right? Original is @ abiut 220. Originally Posted by Binyomin
Sent from my GT-S7390 using Tapatalk
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So I played it to my kid asking to categorize in terms of speed
... @220 , well, it's faster than before, but only medium, really, in general ...
... @120-it's rather slow, even kids could do it that fast, if only they could memorize it ...
... @ 240, it is on the edge of being fast, not very fast by any means...
Now I know why playing fast is not impirtant to us who can not do it, it's because we can not play fast eniugh to impress own children, let alone ...
Sent from my ZP980 using Tapatalk
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In an moment of weakness, I've decided to practice some digital patterns ... now my fingers to brain connection and feedback are so messed up Ihat some figures I can not play @ 60% of what I could do yesterday.
Moral of this story ...
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Yeah, my comments are similar to others. I'm not a fast player either - they should have called me "Slowhand" instead of Clapton. But I think speed is a relative thing. Most players I know (and admire for their ability) don't consider themselves "fast," but that's probably the same insecurity we all share about our abilities. For me, practicing technique exercises daily makes the difference. I've been playing for a very long time (many decades) and I can play "faster" now than when I was in my 20s or 30s, despite aging fingers. I marvel at those players who have attained speed levels that I could only hope for, perhaps in my next guitar life if reincarnation exists.
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My computer is dead for more than a week, already, so this was all done by iPhone 4 ...
I could not quite make it @ 210 bpm, so I thought if I try it @ 240 bpm it would be even worse. I was right about that. It seems doable though. I'll keep trying.
VladanMovies BlogSpot
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Wow, 320.... I can not eat and walk simultaneously at that speed, let alone think and play guitar ... scary ... Is it all alternate? Originally Posted by sgcim
BTW, as far as I could count, Lagrene's versions I found on YT are not 300 - 320 fast. They span from 220 - 280 bpm, only with Jaco 310 ...
It's sad for me to learn that after I almost succeeded in increasing speed 100%, from 120 to 240 and thought it would be kind of OK, once I manage to do it a bit cleaner, of course, now I have to increase another 20% to even be in a ball park. Poor wife and kid.
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I do slow because I like feeling but every now and then I get quick. Even surprises me
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Yes, alternate with slurs on all the triplets. Originally Posted by Vladan
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Any specific fingerings you'd recommend, for bars, or "licks", you found more difficult than the others? Originally Posted by sgcim
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Is it how you play it?
Some parts I play almost the same way as he wrote it. Other, I play almost exactly the oposite way, if that makes some sense (Slides and streches).
For the parts I find the most difficult, I don't even play the same notes, or in same order. It' s only 2-3 notes discrepancy total and 2 notes in reverse, no big deal.
Anyway, this fingering seem to be "tuned" towards guitar friendly arpeggios. My intention is to be more scalar, rhythm and blues, even rock'n'roll.
Plus, it'sonly in lower octave, or register to be more correct.
Why are all guitar versions only in the lower one? When I listen to the recording the siund is very hi pitched and squeeky. OK, maybe the Sax is low and trumpet is hi, but why nobidy plays it hi on the guitar? Nobody wants to be a trumpet? They all want to be saxophones? Why?
VladanMovies BlogSpotLast edited by Vladan; 10-26-2016 at 05:40 PM.
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You're right, Bird and all the other alto players played it an octave higher than that. Not many trumpet players played it at a very fast tempo, because it's too hard. Originally Posted by Vladan
Your fellow countryman Valery Pomeranev is one of the few trumpet players to record it at a tempo above 300bpm.
I played with him once; that guy could play anything!
Guitarists don't play it up there, because it would be in 15th position, and it's hard to play up there on some archtops, and things sound weaker the higher up on the guitar you go. There's a book called "Playing Bebop heads on the Guitar" that has it written out in tabs up in 15th.
It can definitely be done though, and all I'd have to do is re-finger the 5th through 8th bars and I could probably play it well enough. I like to play it in 3rd position, because the sound is stronger there. I can play it in any key, and i always like to play it in F when horn players are playing Indiana.
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I know it can be done. For one, I do it, as presented in that clip couple of posts above. I don't do it that fast, yet. Also I don't think it sounds weaker there. On the contrary ( I'm usually against the stream, per default). I don't do it in 15th, either. Fingetings I chose for higher register are such so to be applicable on archtops, for reasons you mentioned. On Tele, I could do it more comfortably in 15th. That Valerii guy, he is probably Russian, or there about, but definitely not from my country. By 1000 miles, or so. Not that it matters.
Also, when I mention trumpet vs. sax, I do not mean some trumoet only version. I speak about Bird and probably Miles playing it together, at once, unison, if we can say it was unisone since they wade around each other not hitting all the same notes, as far as I could hear. Yes, it's not too fast, about 220.
VladanMovies BlogSpotLast edited by Vladan; 10-26-2016 at 08:44 PM.
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Yes, it's much more easy to play, and sounds better on a good solid body guitar in that octave.
Actually, using Bireli Lagrene's fingering for DL, you can start it in 13th position rather than 15th, and it would probably be easier to play than his version down an octave in tenth position.
I think Clifford Brown played an up tempo version of DL in one of his last recordings; taped at a music store concert.
The most frightening version of DL was by the great Phil Woods with Richie Cole on the album "Side By Side".
They played it at 352bpm. On the out chorus, after improvising on it for several minutes, Phil Woods buries RC by playing the melody as strong as he did in the beginning. RC just gave up.
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