Poll: How Fast Are You?

**stellarstar** · 01-20-2015, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by ecj

Haha, dude...no.

You are claiming that you can double-time at 400 bpm.

Yeah i'm probably off, I think i'm pretty fast though

**Arpeggio** · 02-09-2015, 03:02 PM

When practising / progressing from 16ths @ 60pbm to 16ths @ 80bpm you are increasing speed by 25%

When practising / progressing from 16ths @120 bpm to 16ths @140bpm you are increasing speed by 14.3%

180bpm to 200pbm = 10%

So it gets easier the faster you get.....Right?

**Scott Jones** · 03-15-2015, 08:50 AM

I'll jump back in, here....

It's related to "speed". And most of all, perseverance.

After not being able to play for nearly a year from a neck, elbow, hand injury. Literally not being able to play AT ALL for many months and as recently as last September, could only play 8th notes at 72BPM, I'm back playing and recording again after MUCH physical therapy, spinal steroid injections, steroid injections into my elbow, steroid patches on my hand......AND, I purchased a light weight, thin neck, Carvin Holdsworth HH2x which has made a HUGE difference and likely will allow for a sustainable career, after all of this trauma.

Here's a link to some of my compositions. ALL instruments and solos, done by myself. I went back and re-tracked ALL of my guitar parts on these within the past month with my new Carvin HH2! Lots of "fast playing", but contextually appropriately so. And most of all, grateful I can even play again AT ALL.
Hope ya dig!

https://scottjonesmusic.bandcamp.com...the-carvin-hh2

LOVE THIS INSTRUMENT!

**GuyBoden** · 03-30-2015, 11:13 AM

What about the audience's point of view, do some people prefer to hear slow music, do some prefer to hear fast music and do some like a mixture of both.

**West LA Jazz** · 03-30-2015, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by GuyBoden

What about the audience's point of view, do some people prefer to hear slow music, do some prefer to hear fast music and do some like a mixture of both.

Yes, the audience. I've heard too many greats talk about trying to get a gauge on "the audience.
It's this concept that makes me think that non jazz guys like John Pettrucci and Yngvie Malmsteen will get paying gigs till the day they die.

**bobby d** · 03-30-2015, 02:39 PM

My speeed was really improving a few months ago, but my practice schedule (and chops) has gone down hill since.

Scott Jones, I'm very impressed!

**Koshchei** · 06-09-2015, 04:15 PM

Scott is a demon on guitar

Really great compositions too

**trap** · 03-11-2016, 06:36 PM

I wonder what Jim Hall would say about this topic?

**West LA Jazz** · 03-11-2016, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by trap

I wonder what Jim Hall would say about this topic?

I have a master class DVD of his where he actually jokes about his finger dexterity.
I had no idea he had such a great sense of humor.

PS:

He talks technique here and praises Pat Metheny (technique) and Scofield (Variety of sound)
He says his technique is in his left hand. Good stuff.

**trap** · 03-11-2016, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by West LA Jazz

I have a master class DVD of his where he actually jokes about his finger dexterity.
I had no idea he had such a great sense of humor.

PS:

He talks technique here and praises Pat Metheny (technique) and Scofield (Variety of sound)
He says his technique is in his left hand. Good stuff.

I bet Metheny and Scofield would have high praise for Jim too! He turned his limitation with chops into a signature sound.

**targuit** · 03-12-2016, 02:57 PM

Faster than a speeding bullet! Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.... I forget how that Superman refrain for the old Steve Reeves show I watched regularly as a kid goes.

I like to think I'm as fast as I can be. Sometimes it's true. Sometimes....

I never calculated how fast I can play. When I watch the latest videos of Pasquale Grasso, I start thinking ...damn! I'm so ...slow.

**West LA Jazz** · 03-12-2016, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by trap

I bet Metheny and Scofield would have high praise for Jim too! He turned his limitation with chops into a signature sound.

In the video posted above. Jim demonstrates some serious speed with his left hand that surprised me.

He says that he's able to achieve that without much right hand involvement except to strike the string once or twice to get sound as opposed to someone like Di Meola who uses his right hand to strike almost every note he plays.

This is what I took from the piece posted above about Jim. Again, in the video, he talks about ALWAYS trying to take an idea and then stretching and reinterpreting that idea. I think his technique was ALWAYS in service of his melodic ideas and these ideas mostly didn't involve burning.

Reminds me of all the folks who drive Porches. 95+% of them will never drive these cars nearly as fast they can go.

**trap** · 03-13-2016, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by West LA Jazz

In the video posted above. Jim demonstrates some serious speed with his left hand that surprised me.

He says that he's able to achieve that without much right hand involvement except to strike the string once or twice to get sound as opposed to someone like Di Meola who uses his right hand to strike almost every note he plays.

This is what I took from the piece posted above about Jim. Again, in the video, he talks about ALWAYS trying to take an idea and then stretching and reinterpreting that idea. I think his technique was ALWAYS in service of his melodic ideas and these ideas mostly didn't involve burning.

Reminds me of all the folks who drive Porches. 95+% of them will never drive these cars nearly as fast they can go.

Nice video! Jim was my first influence in jazz guitar. I saw him live in NYC with Ron Carter in a smal club called "The Guitar" . I could almost touch him!!

being fast is fine but not an end unto itself. But I'm preaching to the choir I'm sure.

**West LA Jazz** · 08-31-2016, 02:23 PM

If technique (aka your voice) is to be employed SOLELY in the service of "speaking/singing" aka soloing or contributing to the song being played, then the esteemed PETER BERNSTEIN effectively puts this argument to rest. This is especially so after listening to Defrancsco's lightning solos that blaze at warp speed!

I heard this song ("TAKE THE COLTRANE") performed by BOBBY HUTCHERSON, JOEY DEFRANCESCO, PETER BERNSTEIN & BYRON LANHAM on the radio this week. I must confess, it was the first time I'd ever heard this song. The tempo is FAST. It blazes!! And what does Peter do? He times his solos. Nothing really fast but so in the POCKET, funky (if I may use the term in this context) and his use of SPACE is just sweet!

A while back, I would have thought that this tempo needed fleet fingers playing at a blur to keep up but Peter goes the other way. How fast is he playing, He plays some relatively fast passages but that's so not the point. He uses the rhythm to his advantage and rides the waves like an experienced surfer would. Rhythm and Melody, indivisible in the eyes of whatever it is that gave us music!

Check it out. I think its a blast but what do I know? ;-)

Don't want to listen to the whole song? Scroll to the 3:40 mark to jump to Peter's solo.

**Boston Joe** · 08-31-2016, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by West LA Jazz

If technique (aka your voice) is to be employed SOLELY in the service of "speaking/singing" aka soloing or contributing to the song being played, then the esteemed PETER BERNSTEIN effectively puts this argument to rest. This is especially so after listening to Defrancsco's lightning solos that blaze at warp speed!

I heard this song ("TAKE THE COLTRANE") performed by BOBBY HUTCHERSON, JOEY DEFRANCESCO, PETER BERNSTEIN & BYRON LANHAM on the radio this week. I must confess, it was the first time I'd ever heard this song. The tempo is FAST. It blazes!! And what does Peter do? He times his solos. Nothing really fast but so in the POCKET, funky (if I may use the term in this context) and his use of SPACE is just sweet!

A while back, I would have thought that this tempo needed fleet fingers playing at a blur to keep up but Peter goes the other way. How fast is he playing, He plays some relatively fast passages but that's so not the point. He uses the rhythm to his advantage and rides the waves like an experienced surfer would. Rhythm and Melody, indivisible in the eyes of whatever it is that gave us music!

Check it out. I think its a blast but what do I know? ;-)

Don't want to listen to the whole song? Scroll to the 3:40 mark to jump to Peter's solo.

Love it! There's another good version of that tune (also with Joey D. playing) on Pat Martino's Live at Yoshi's disc. (Although Pat definitely takes the machine gun approach).

I've come to accept the fact that my muscles will never twitch as fast as some other peoples'. I can hold my own at fairly brisk tempi, but I prefer a somewhat more relaxed pace. *

*Someone told me last week that what he liked about my playing was how relaxed it felt. Listening back to some of my rehearsal recordings, I can see what he meant, and I'm going to try to develop that feel.

**neatomic** · 08-31-2016, 07:32 PM

well there's a place for everything and everything in its place

the point being dont waste'm, make every one count..despite the tempo

a computer can do 360 + bpm..but who wants to listen?

and remember you can only go so fast before it all becomes one again

cheers

**Boston Joe** · 08-31-2016, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by neatomic

a computer can do 360 + bpm..but who wants to listen?

Based on the popularity of EDM, I'd say a lot of people.

**Binyomin** · 09-01-2016, 11:34 AM

I tried about a year ago to get the head to Donna Lee to come out fast enough to sound right. I couldn't do it. I would like to try again since I have been playing alot in the meantime.

**Boston Joe** · 09-01-2016, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Binyomin

I tried about a year ago to get the head to Donna Lee to come out fast enough to sound right. I couldn't do it. I would like to try again since I have been playing alot in the meantime.

I can play it at a pretty brisk clip. Maybe not as fast as some people like to play it, but fast enough to make a casual listener say, "hey, that's fast". It's tricky, but I found some hammer-on/pull-off fingerings that take some of the pressure off my right hand. Give it another shot. It's full of great bop licks.

**West LA Jazz** · 09-01-2016, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

Based on the popularity of EDM, I'd say a lot of people.

I love EDM. Specifically DRUM AND BASS. You can find some really amazing rhythms and grooves in that sub genre. I can't wait to hear jazz tunes done in EDM... and using the Peter Bernstein approach to soloing. Bluesy and riding the rhythm.

Originally Posted by Binyomin

I tried about a year ago to get the head to Donna Lee to come out fast enough to sound right. I couldn't do it. I would like to try again since I have been playing alot in the meantime.

Keep at it. This is exactly how I felt when I started learning how to play SPAIN about 4 years ago. It took me a while to play the head comfortably in one position. Still something didn’t feel right and so out of desperation, I decided to learn it in 3 other positions. Eventually I realized that I the original position that I taught myself was the 2^nd hardest position in which to play it. The 2^nd position attempt ended up being the easiest in which to play the song. Now I use the most difficult position only as a dexterity exercise of sorts. I can’t even play it without warming up. I always default to the easiest position when playing it with other musicians.

For inspiration, here’s an old video of PHISH playing Donna Lee. You can tell Trey is using a linear approach by playing as many notes as he can on a single string. Maybe you might like that approach.

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

I prefer oration, not auctioneering.

Trademark this. Fast! ;-)

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

Love it! There's another good version of that tune (also with Joey D. playing) on Pat Martino's Live at Yoshi's disc. (Although Pat definitely takes the machine gun approach).

I've come to accept the fact that my muscles will never twitch as fast as some other peoples'. I can hold my own at fairly brisk tempi, but I prefer a somewhat more relaxed pace. *

*Someone told me last week that what he liked about my playing was how relaxed it felt. Listening back to some of my rehearsal recordings, I can see what he meant, and I'm going to try to develop that feel.

There is a Mike Stern lesson where he talks about technique and how some players who don’t have speed find ways to compensate. Basically, they play to their strengths. He talks about really struggling with soloing and playing jazz when he first started. He says it didn't come easily for him like it did for Pat Metheny who was playing at an advanced level by the time he was 20. What Stern didn't say (but (I picked up on it) was that he had to work really hard at it to be able to play. You’re on to something with the relaxed feel. You’re lucky someone pointed that out to you. Play to your strengths.

**Boston Joe** · 09-01-2016, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by West LA Jazz

You’re on to something with the relaxed feel. You’re lucky someone pointed that out to you. Play to your strengths.

Indeed, however, as I discovered at rehearsal last night, A) you can't will yourself to play relaxed, and B) it's harder to play relaxed at higher tempos. (In hindsight, my having a relaxed feel shouldn't be all that surprising. One of my first guitar inspirations was Mark Knopfler. He's a pretty relaxed-playing dude himself.)

**West LA Jazz** · 09-03-2016, 04:21 AM

Picking aid alert (since picks can greatly slow or speed up your technique).
I recently discovered these picks. I ended up getting them online because they cost more at my local guitar shop (they sell them as singles instead of 12 packs). I was using ULTEX picks which are great (grip and slippage on the strings without too much choking between strings). These offer the stiffness and just enough flex in them. For those who like stiff picks I'd start at .63mm. The 50mm is interesting. It's the best combination of stiff and flexible. Interesting picks I think. Technology.. Ch, Ch, Ch, Changing!

Clayton Acetal Rounded Triangle Picks 12-pack .50mm | Sweetwater.com

Dunlop Ultex Tri Picks, .60mm, 6-Pack

**Stuart King** · 09-03-2016, 05:49 AM

If anyone is interested I was just featured on the jazz guitar site fretdojo.com where I presented a workshop on speed playing for jazz guitarists. Here's the link:

Slaying The Speed Demon: Speed Picking Secrets for Jazz Guitar

Stu

**Hyppolyte Bergamotte** · 09-03-2016, 06:37 AM

I cannot play fast anymore, since a wrist injury ,10 years ago,due to too much speed, that let me not playing for 3 month .So ,for me,uptempos are gone!
Bye bye Donna Lee

HB

**Binyomin** · 09-04-2016, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by West LA Jazz

Keep at it.

Thanks (to you and others) for the encouragement. I just tried something I've been meaning to do for a while. I printed out the page with Donna Lee from the Bb Real Book. It came out in Bb (Doesn't that mean it comes out in C for a Bb instrument? What happened to Ab?). Anyway, Bb seems to sit easier on the guitar. Let's see how this goes....