Alternate Picking (Floating hand VS Anchored)

[christianm77]

If you guys want to look at a " Floating Wrist" player to emulate - this Guy here would maybe be better to emulate.

Also as I said above the difference between "floating" and "lightly resting" is
sometimes not that big.

I think this Guy can have a really good Career in Jazz- lol.

Pat Martino - episode 30:

Notice how he "turns" or slightly rotates his wrist to "dig in" and accent certain notes...

To my ears his " swing" is a hair more relaxed than Benson but he is definitely what I call a "hard swinger" as opposed to the "bouncier" softer Swing that seems later in the Beat to me.

I much prefer the "Hard Swingers".

Martino must have some big forearms there for a thin guy- his endurance is pretty amazing isn't it ?

But a great "Floating Wrist Tecnnique" where he can speed up/ slow down/ in the middle of a Phrase and accent Notes where he wants to.

If you want to "Float" look at this Guy.

He must have seriously freaked out a lot of Guitarists in the early 60s -playing this way....( so well ).

In the mid 1960s there was Martino and Benson...and I bet Jazz Guitarists everywhere ( with few exceptions) were scrambling to elevate their Chops.

I really like martinos feel, quite straight but super swinging somehow. That said I think he's an acquired taste.

As it seems that martino is not a pure alternate player after all (something he shares with benson and pass) I might hazard a guess that he may be using rest strokes to some extent. This allows the player to use gravity to propel the downstrokes without fear of hitting a wrong string.

Any up strokes can come from a flick of the wrist, or a bounce when you get up to tempo. This is the way I teach it anyway...

I find this is a very easy energy conserving way to play the guitar. You only use muscle power 50% of the time, and only use it to prepare the stroke. At no point do you need to 'make' the sound project.

It's early days yet, but I suspect benson picking has similar characteristics...

I'll need to watch pats right hand carefully. This may well not be what he's doing...

[Robertkoa]

I really like martinos feel, quite straight but super swinging somehow. That said I think he's an acquired taste.

As it seems that martino is not a pure alternate player after all (something he shares with benson and pass) I might hazard a guess that he may be using rest strokes to some extent. This allows the player to use gravity to propel the downstrokes without fear of hitting a wrong string.

Any up strokes can come from a flick of the wrist, or a bounce when you get up to tempo. This is the way I teach it anyway...

I find this is a very easy energy conserving way to play the guitar. You only use muscle power 50% of the time, and only use it to prepare the stroke. At no point do you need to 'make' the sound project.

It's early days yet, but I suspect benson picking has similar characteristics...

I'll need to watch pats right hand carefully. This may well not be what he's doing...

Yeah honestly I am not sure what he is doing or Benson either ...lol. But they are doing it well.
So I don't want to say one way or another- there are I think some people on here who have seen these Guys up close or even had a few Lessons with them.

However - if you watch Videos of Al Dimeola ...one of the early speedier guys in the Fusion Movement he is picking hard much as the Gypsys and no downstrokes but he can't alternate pick across the strings as I do- which is a disadvantage of burying the pick too low below the Plane of the Strings...
Benson cuts the strings with the "Reverse Angle" pick thing as does
Eric Gales and as with myself with Advanced Alternate Picking "Rest Strokes" are not necessary to hit the strings hard and fast and accurately.

One advantage of Benson Picking and my more " conventional" Picking is Upstrokes and Downstrokes sound the same...and the reason I call mine "Advanced" is - no need to use " economy" or "sweep" to go across strings rhythmically or at high speeds.

I imagine that the "sweepers" can do things I can't and vice versa.

When I have some Music/Product to sell in 2016 - maybe we can do some sweepers economy pickers complicated picking scheme Guys ( even Famous Ones ) versus my Advanced Alternate Picking- and see who wins... not just speed- speed and Rhythmic Accuracy- to my ears Benson is almost unparalleled for Rhythmic Precision in his Picking .

Not used to Playing Solos for 16 or 32 Bars - I had to put more muscle onto my Forearms ( from Practice) since I started "swinging" and soloing for much longer than typical Rock or Pop Solos- I am NOT using Gravity- wish I could.

[christianm77]

Yeah honestly I am not sure what he is doing or Benson either ...lol. But they are doing it well.
So I don't want to say one way or another- there are I think some people on here who have seen these Guys up close or even had a few Lessons with them.

However - if you watch Videos of Al Dimeola ...one of the early speedier guys in the Fusion Movement he is picking hard much as the Gypsys and no downstrokes but he can't alternate pick across the strings as I do- which is a disadvantage of burying the pick too low below the Plane of the Strings...
Benson cuts the strings with the "Reverse Angle" pick thing as does
Eric Gales and as with myself with Advanced Alternate Picking "Rest Strokes" are not necessary to hit the strings hard and fast and accurately.

One advantage of Benson Picking and my more " conventional" Picking is Upstrokes and Downstrokes sound the same...and the reason I call mine "Advanced" is - no need to use " economy" or "sweep" to go across strings rhythmically or at high speeds.

I imagine that the "sweepers" can do things I can't and vice versa.

When I have some Music/Product to sell in 2016 - maybe we can do some sweepers economy pickers complicated picking scheme Guys ( even Famous Ones ) versus my Advanced Alternate Picking- and see who wins... not just speed- speed and Rhythmic Accuracy- to my ears Benson is almost unparalleled for Rhythmic Precision in his Picking .

Not used to Playing Solos for 16 or 32 Bars - I had to put more muscle onto my Forearms ( from Practice) since I started "swinging" and soloing for much longer than typical Rock or Pop Solos- I am NOT using Gravity- wish I could.

Tbh I have literally no idea how people can use floating hand tirando alternate picking. I've never sunk time into it because it is so hard and the pay offs seem so small. But some people out there seem to - I guess anything is possible given enough work. I don't see the point of it and doubt it has any significant basis in any tradition. It's not like having a floating wrist serves any purpose I can divine because the acoustic projection of this technique is rather poor.

In any case pat it seem is using his wrist afiak, which is similar to how I pick when I am using trad grip and I worried about muting (ie electric playing) in my case when I do the my wrist is very much anchored...

Incidentally from my preliminary and no doubt rather flawed explorations of benson picking, up strokes do seem more natural than in trad grip rest stroke picking. I like the evenness for electric playing although this is totally available with anchored wrist alternate picking. Acoustic projection seems weaker than with trad rest stroke picking though this may be due to my incomplete grasp of the technique..

[christianm77]

Edit - it's probably good for cross picking...

[Robertkoa]

Before you start selling, maybe an example, or two won't hurt?

No recording Rig now....I had a nice little Midi Rig /Alesis Masterlink back in
1999-2000 but that was an R&B Project for a Singer...no Guitar at all.



I was never good enough before as a Soloist to do a legit CD as an Instrumentalist. I have not had these chops since recently
So I will have to put a Composition Rig together ...program the Beats ,Basslines etc.
This will be Urban Jazz...or Harmonically Expanded R&B.



I can't play Standards nearly as well as The Master Jazzers- ( except Rhythm Changes- Georgia- That's Life or the Bluesier Standards - my new Chops fit Jazz very well - but that was not what I set out to do originally and not why I am here- I am here to increase my Musical Vocabulary .

It's weird in a good way because sometimes I think of crazy stuff while I am playing and actually can do it and when you play what's in your mind it usually fits the Changes....





Even writing and recording a 60 Second Jingle takes some Work.

And getting some new Expanded R&B Grooves with Expanded Guitar Voicings
with Guitar Melodies will be a lot of work...

It's far too late in the Game to make even a small dent in the Music World with Chops alone...but I put in many many many thousands of hours and even prayed and they finally let me have chops ...weird but true.
I just heard a Gypsy Picker saying if you use another Technique for Gypsy Swing like Alternate Picking -it's fine ...lol.

Now I see why you Guys are confused- he is acting like it's something different that they are doing.
It is mostly alternate picking - if I pick super hard and fast and Vibrato it sounds just like that...
Except I don't know the Changes - very Old Fashioned sounding...like Ragtime maybe with those diminished passing chords and very scalar runs occasional arpeggios-
I appreciate the Technique and Humor - don't like the lack of Rhythmic variety too much TBH.

[Robertkoa]

Well, I don't know if I'm doing something wrong, but the attack will really suffer with a 45 degree angle, and the sound on the lower wound strings will be really scratchy.

The least scratchy ( and I hate pick noise) picks I have found are the
Dunlop Tortex ( often heavier gauges on all picks "slide off" the string more but experiment depends on your hands, technique)
Dunlop Gator Grip
Planet Waves Duralin- a hair stiffer than Tortex a hair more articulate IMO.
Planet Waves- Duragrip Duralin with a Super Grippy Raised Grid at Thumb Grip- might be a great pick for many ...

And sometimes as they wear a little 320 Sandpaper to smooth the sharp ridges back to round.

It's really hard to know what you mean by 45 degree angle..
If you see a Guy or a Teacher who uses a similar right hand position to you but can Pick like a Mfer - that's worth paying for some up close lessons maybe-
And I imagine looking at those Grady Videos could help.

Another thing is you should probably listen
for the optimum angle for your picking style body mechanics etc. rather than use some arbitrary Angle.
You want to tremelo pick ; Alternate on one Note get upstrokes and downstrokes to sound very nearly the same slow it down speed it up etc. then work the fret hand into it.

[Robertkoa]

Edit - it's probably good for cross picking...

Well I developed it after hearing Van Halens tapping thing tapping triads and jumping string sets- and I suck at tapping anyway so I developed a way to do that picking every note .. and it's easier to control the time and picking harder it can swing and works on acoustic and can be slow or fast like the horn players...my little contribution and we have to see whether I do anything musically valid with it...but the Technique itself is valid.
Steve Morse alternates on Arpeggios- I don't know of he does triplets and sextuplets across three strings...

[MatsP]

Yes although I don't hammer or tap- in fact even when I hammer I pick but can pick each note very softly when I want ( finally lol- NOT a natural who got excellent or great by age 15 or 20 ) to sound almost like tapping guys or pick harder like Benson but with "conventional" pick angle .

The "Tortex"picks are great for no pick noise even at weird angles and articulate well OR glide a la Eric Johnson depending on pick depth.

I am going to post a Video from Norman Brown who plays and sounds quite a bit like Benson with more "conventional" right hand.

How do you manage to play with Tortex picks with an angle without producing pick noise? Hell, they are the noisiest picks I've ever come upon, and I attribute that to the sharp edges. Might work for flatwound, but they create hell when playing angled on roundwounds.

[ChuckCorbis]

How do you manage to play with Tortex picks with an angle without producing pick noise? Hell, they are the noisiest picks I've ever come upon, and I attribute that to the sharp edges. Might work for flatwound, but they create hell when playing angled on roundwounds.

They come in 2 different edges.....pointy and regular. They sound ok turned around on the round edge from what I remember.

[MatsP]

The least scratchy ( and I hate pick noise) picks I have found are the
Dunlop Tortex ( often heavier gauges on all picks "slide off" the string more but experiment depends on your hands, technique)
Dunlop Gator Grip
Planet Waves Duralin- a hair stiffer than Tortex a hair more articulate IMO.
Planet Waves- Duragrip Duralin with a Super Grippy Raised Grid at Thumb Grip- might be a great pick for many ...

And sometimes as they wear a little 320 Sandpaper to smooth the sharp ridges back to round.

It's really hard to know what you mean by 45 degree angle..
If you see a Guy or a Teacher who uses a similar right hand position to you but can Pick like a Mfer - that's worth paying for some up close lessons maybe-
And I imagine looking at those Grady Videos could help.

Another thing is you should probably listen
for the optimum angle for your picking style body mechanics etc. rather than use some arbitrary Angle.
You want to tremelo pick ; Alternate on one Note get upstrokes and downstrokes to sound very nearly the same slow it down speed it up etc. then work the fret hand into it.

Can't be that hard to understand what I mean by 45 degrees angle. Imagine the string as -------------, then the pick will be angled like a '\' if you look down on the guitar from above.

[MatsP]

Can't be that hard to understand what I mean by 45 degrees angle. Imagine the string as -------------, then the pick will be angled like a '\' if you look down on the guitar from above.

In any case, a small angle will still produce a good tone, and it will make the pick glide more easily across the string, unless you practice letting the pick wiggle by itself in order to decrease reistance. I've tried that, but it will make the precision suffer in my book.

[MatsP]

They come in 2 different edges.....pointy and regular. They sound ok turned around on the round edge from what I remember.

I was referring to the sharp bevels of the Tortex picks. Sorry if I was unclear.

[ChuckCorbis]

I was referring to the sharp bevels of the Tortex picks. Sorry if I was unclear.

Bevels? I'm referring to the pointy tip one which is lousy with round wounds for jazz guitar. There's a standard pointed one that's less pointy and normal looking like a fender pick which is acceptable. Round wounds can be troublesome when go up above 11s though with any pick for a jazz tone. Just my opinion though. Half rounds would be a better alternative if not flats.

[MatsP]

Bevels? I'm referring to the pointy tip one which is lousy with round wounds for jazz guitar. There's a standard pointed one that's less pointy and normal looking like a fender pick which is acceptable. Round wounds can be troublesome when go up above 11s though with any pick for a jazz tone. Just my opinion though. Half rounds would be a better alternative if not flats.

Yes, bevels. They are very sharp on the Tortex picks, and they create lots of noise when you angle the pick, at least on the lower roundwound strings that I'm using. They might fare better with flatwounds, I have no experience of that.

I have tried the pointy version of the Tortex ones, and it's equally noisy to my ears. Both the pointy and the "Fender" style one are noisy with roundwounds.

[ChuckCorbis]

Yes, bevels. They are very sharp on the Tortex picks, and they create lots of noise when you angle the pick, at least on the lower roundwound strings that I'm using. They might fare better with flatwounds, I have no experience of that.

I have tried the pointy version of the Tortex ones, and it's equally noisy to my ears. Both the pointy and the "Fender" style one are noisy with roundwounds.

Fender celluloid 351 mediums turned around on the round end work fine when all else fails. Pat Metheny uses Fender THINS TURNED AROUND with 11s round wound.

[MatsP]

Fender celluloid 351 mediums turned around on the round end work fine when all else fails. Pat Metheny uses Fender THINS TURNED AROUND with 11s round wound.

Yes, they have nice and smooth bevels. I've used Fender 351 heavy for a long time, but recently I've started to use Dunlop Delrin 500 1.5 mm, which also has a smooth bevel, and a (logically) fatter sound than the Fender. I've also used Jazz III a bit, but they sometimes feel a bit too small to me.

[ChuckCorbis]

Yes, they have nice and smooth bevels. I've used Fender 351 heavy for a long time, but recently I've started to use Dunlop Delrin 500 1.5 mm, which also has a smooth bevel, and a (logically) fatter sound than the Fender. I've also used Jazz III a bit, but they sometimes feel a bit too small to me.

Once you go that heavy you loose the flex. I need the flex. Reverse angle and forward ....I use both and 2 different grips depending on whats going on. I hate to commit to heavy picks. Medium splits the difference for myself.

[MatsP]

So that is more like the Benson / Santana / Neil Schon reverse angle ?

That one I don't use.

My pick is more like this / but top is tilted down toward the flat more and pick is tilted and my command position is more underneath the string to strengthen upstrokes = downstrokes.

I wasted a lot of time because my Fretting Hand could not keep up with small hands short pinky I had to get my THUMB off the top of the neck to keep up with right.

Very few Players can use the Benson Picking extremely well like Benson.

Not reverse, forward angle (If you will). You bend the thumb towards the hand to achieve this angle (well you have that angle naturally to some degree thanks to the arm not being parallel to the strings).

[MatsP]

Once you go that heavy you loose the flex. I need the flex. Reverse angle and forward ....I use both and 2 different grips depending on whats going on. I hate to commit to heavy picks. Medium splits the difference for myself.

With flex comes some degree of randomness and imprecision, unfortunately. But to each his own, as always

[MatsP]

With flex comes some degree of randomness and imprecision, unfortunately. But to each his own, as always

You can create the "flex" by letting the pick wiggle a bit by itself. Andreas Oberg does this. Although it creates imprecision as well, at least to me.

[MatsP]

Looks to me as though he anchors hand to bridge and def. uses small finger as stop. So I wouldn't call floating..

Just a note...he is playing a solid body with more of a rock style technique... very different than playing a jazz box with jazz technique.

Reg

Frank anchors heavily with his wrist resting somewhere around the bridge, as far as I can tell. That's pretty obvious from looking at his slightly "raised" hand, with respect to the wrist.

[Thumpalumpacus]

It depends what I'm doing. Fingerpicking? 99% of the time, floating. Flatpicking? I put the base of my palm lightly on the bridge. I never anchor with my pinky.

Yeah, it's a Yamaha SG2000, they have a thin body, very different than improvising on a jazz box, but Frank Gambale is definitely in the fast player league.

Guy

It tickles this lifelong rocker's funny-bone to see an SG2000 described as "thin-bodied."

Floating above the strings is fine if you happen to have a guitar with absolutely zero symphatetic resonance, as in the strings you aren't playing aren't ringing by themselves. Otherwise you'll simply HAVE to mute these strings in some way. I know Herb Ellis had some sort of damper at the nut, but that's rare.

Exactly why I anchor on the palm when using a pick -- I can roll a portion of that palm onto or off of this or that string to mute unwanted resonance. Very important, especially with any distortion.

[christianm77]

I wonder if muting isn't less of a big deal than people think. One surprise is how much string ring Adam Rogers gets when he is playing at practice levels in his music masterclass vid.

It doesn't seem to be an issue when he plays live, often with drive.

I wonder if he mutes a bit when playing with distortion but does t bother when clean.

I might add that it does bother me, but not when I play acoustic.

[Drumbler]

From what I can see Martino is resting the heel of his right hand lightly on the guitar. He is not floating.

He also has a flying pinkie.

Just goes to show these things don't really seem to matter.

[ginod]

I think its a little bit prematurely to say that floating technique is the best.

There are so many great players who anchored their hand or resting the whole wrist on the bridge.

The anchored wrist has some advantage like more control and safety. But the most advantage is to kill noises like ringing bass strings.

So i think restring wrist on lower strings or bridge is a good way to avoid noises and get a clean technique. Thats also a reason why so much metal guitar Player are playing in this way.

On the other hand the floating technique give you more fluently in playing when you change between strumming and Solo Lines. But i wouldn't sign that there is a big different in loudness. Andreas Öberg use resting Wrist on the bridge and his Restroke-Picking is really loud. My person technique is similar like Öbergs and i have no problem to make a really loud reststroke if i want.

So i think there is no better or not better. Both techniques are used by so many great players.