How hard do you pick?

[lawson-stone]

Light pickers (yes, many modern players) lack dynamic expression, or even passion. Some of my non guitarist jazz friends don't like jazz guitar, yet they still like Django, Christian, Wes and Benson. The dynamic guys, even Wes with his thumb was dynamic.
Try to cop a Cannonball Adderley line on guitar with soft picking, and compare it to the average sax player's version of the same line. It will probably sound lame, compression or FX will only make it worse. No wonder players stick to more "guitaristic" ideas, that only guitarists seem to respond to....

I sometimes think we should all go back to training ourselves to be expressive on an acoustic instrument, and only then bring the dynamic range to the electric instrument by choosing the instrument and amplifier (and settings) that accurately reflect those dynamics. Instead we tend to alter our dynamics to suit the electric instrument, letting it dictate terms...... Just being devil's advocate ...... and trying to think of ways to make Jazz guitar compelling to non guitarists......

The first sentence here strikes me as an over-generalization, even a stereotype. The assumption that passion translates somehow into vigorous physicality strikes me as a classic mistake. In many domains, love for example, passion is best translated into something more gentle, more aware of the recipient.

[lawson-stone]

I came across this clip of George Benson, who seems to use a combination of very light picking and spanking within the same line. Pretty cool.

Benson comes off in this clip like a generally all-around great guy. Somebody you could hang out with.

[MatsP]

The first sentence here strikes me as an over-generalization, even a stereotype. The assumption that passion translates somehow into vigorous physicality strikes me as a classic mistake. In many domains, love for example, passion is best translated into something more gentle, more aware of the recipient.

Yes, alright, but there is a risk that everything will sound somewhat anonymous if you pick lightly all over the place. I know many jazz guitarists favour it, but personally I like to have more of the guitar "ringing", as if you were using an unamplified old archtop without pickups, sort of.

[MatsP]

Yes, alright, but there is a risk that everything will sound somewhat anonymous if you pick lightly all over the place. I know many jazz guitarists favour it, but personally I like to have more of the guitar "ringing", as if you were using an unamplified old archtop without pickups, sort of.

Or *slightly* flirting with gypsy jazz technique, but not quite as much, of course. That's overkill for an amplified archtop or solid-body.

[Nate Miller]

I get your point with using as little amp as possible, or at least limit its influence on the sound. And I also like playing a little harder because that gets more of the actual tone from the guitar itself, rather than what's generated by the magnetic field of the pickups. Currently I'm not using an archtop, I'm using a solid-body with .010 strings, and that isn't exactly heavy, but I'm trying to get a full sound in spite of that.

just remember that I don't have a modern sound and I'm playing an old 175, so that bit about using as little amp as possible I don't think would really apply to you. Use as much amp as you need

I mention this so that you can take what I said for what its worth. Your sound and your style are probably a lot different and the way I do it might be the wrong thing for you

Experiment with some different pick and string gages and find a set up that suits you

I agree with Mark that medium picks and .011 gage strings go together very well. I would think that would work out pretty good. Definitely worth a try.

and don't worry about not having an archtop. All I had to start with was a Les Paul. You got to play what you got

[MatsP]

just remember that I don't have a modern sound and I'm playing an old 175, so that bit about using as little amp as possible I don't think would really apply to you. Use as much amp as you need

I mention this so that you can take what I said for what its worth. Your sound and your style are probably a lot different and the way I do it might be the wrong thing for you

Experiment with some different pick and string gages and find a set up that suits you

I agree with Mark that medium picks and .011 gage strings go together very well. I would think that would work out pretty good. Definitely worth a try.

and don't worry about not having an archtop. All I had to start with was a Les Paul. You got to play what you got

I have a crappy Schecter C-1 Classic that I bought 5 years ago or so, that was the least "heavy metal" model of the Schecter fame that I could find at the time. And I couldn't afford an LP or similar. I have been on a guitar playing hiatus for many years, and I wanted something decent in the meantime. Anyway, it's not too bad.

I can understand that the technique required to play an ES-175 differs from playing a solid-body, yet, I want the guitar "ringing" in some respect. It seems many jazz players like a light touch, but they also sound rather anonymous to my ears. Herb Ellis and Barney Kessel both played rather hard, and I like that gutsy tone.

[lawson-stone]

Yes, alright, but there is a risk that everything will sound somewhat anonymous if you pick lightly all over the place. I know many jazz guitarists favour it, but personally I like to have more of the guitar "ringing", as if you were using an unamplified old archtop without pickups, sort of.

Again, I just don't find that to be my own observation. At an extreme, perhaps. I have never been able to get into Lenny Breaux or George Van Epps, partly because they play with such "organ-like" purity. No pick noise, no sense of skin on strings. It's virtuosic playing, but it doesn't get to me.

But that's really not a matter of hard-vs-soft picking, but of a whole approach that just doesn't float my boat.

I think a lot more goes into a player's approach than that. Joe Pass at his best often picked very softly.

[MatsP]

Again, I just don't find that to be my own observation. At an extreme, perhaps. I have never been able to get into Lenny Breaux or George Van Epps, partly because they play with such "organ-like" purity. No pick noise, no sense of skin on strings. It's virtuosic playing, but it doesn't get to me.

But that's really not a matter of hard-vs-soft picking, but of a whole approach that just doesn't float my boat.

I think a lot more goes into a player's approach than that. Joe Pass at his best often picked very softly.

It *is* a matter of hard vs. soft picking, because that's what determines what the sound will be like. If you pick soft, less overtones, a more anonymous tone. If you pick harder, more guts into the tone, and more sound from the guitar itself. It's no rocket science.

Both Barney Kessel and Herb Ellis picked pretty hard, and I like that sound. To each his own.

[lawson-stone]

It *is* a matter of hard vs. soft picking, because that's what determines what the sound will be like. If you pick soft, less overtones, a more anonymous tone. If you pick harder, more guts into the tone, and more sound from the guitar itself. It's no rocket science.

Both Barney Kessel and Herb Ellis picked pretty hard, and I like that sound. To each his own.

Sure. We can certainly agree to disagree, in an agreeable manner!

[MatsP]

Sure. We can certainly agree to disagree, in an agreeable manner!

Of course! No use arguing about this subject really. Music is like food. Speaking of heavy hitters by the way, John McLaughlin sounds like he's using a lot of picking force, in spite of using a solid-body. Whether it's enjoyable or not is another question.

[christianm77]

How hard do you pick? That's a pretty deep question.

When I started playing acoustic I reworked my technique so I was heavily picking with downward rest strokes. I started off being a real basher, but over the years I have started to realise that sheer force isn't necessary.

So hard do I pick? Not very - I keep my pick hand as relaxed as possible to stop it from locking up. My aim is to tread the fine line between playing with no tension and the pick falling out of my nerveless grasp. I want maximum power, minimum effort.

How loud am I as a player? I can play without an amp, in a group, if the audience is respectful :-) I am pretty loud player, although I try never to play 'louder than lovely' now.

When you make a rest stroke on the pick the movement is very natural the thing getting in the way is the string, which is springy. A good thing to explore is the feel of that springiness of the string and when it finally gives way.

For electric I like a more muted sound. Again it's not about right hand force but the physics of the way the sound is produced.

I like what Julian Lage says on the subject. Again he is a player who can project acoustically.

He discusses technique about 38m in.

[MatsP]

How hard do you pick? That's a pretty deep question.

When I started playing acoustic I reworked my technique so I was heavily picking with downward rest strokes. I started off being a real basher, but over the years I have started to realise that sheer force isn't necessary.

So hard do I pick? Not very - I keep my pick hand as relaxed as possible to stop it from locking up. My aim is to tread the fine line between playing with no tension and the pick falling out of my nerveless grasp. I want maximum power, minimum effort.

How loud am I as a player? I can play without an amp, if the audience is respectful :-) I am pretty loud player, although I try never to play 'louder than lovely' now.

When you make a rest stroke on the pick the movement is very natural the thing getting in the way is the string, which is springy. A good thing to explore is the feel of that springiness of the string and when it finally gives way.

For electric I like a more muted sound. Again it's not about right hand force but the physics of the way the sound is produced.

I like what Julian Lage says on the subject. Again he is a player who can project acoustically.

He discusses technique about 38m in.

In my book, you can have a strong attack, and still be very relaxed in the hand and elbow. I've adopted Jimmy Bruno's "elbow technique" lately, where the main motion is from the elbow. As long as you have a relaxed wrist, you can have a relatively firm grip on the pick with the fingers, and get a nice, strong attack. Now I'm in favour of a stronger attack, to get more of the guitar's inherent sound out the door, but that's a matter of preference, of course.

[MatsP]

In my book, you can have a strong attack, and still be very relaxed in the hand and elbow. I've adopted Jimmy Bruno's "elbow technique" lately, where the main motion is from the elbow. As long as you have a relaxed wrist, you can have a relatively firm grip on the pick with the fingers, and get a nice, strong attack. Now I'm in favour of a stronger attack, to get more of the guitar's inherent sound out the door, but that's a matter of preference, of course.

Gypsy picking with rest strokes is good when you're doing alternate picking exclusively, but it's not very good when you're doing economy picking, (combined alternate/sweep picking) due to the downwards angle of the pick.

[christianm77]

Gypsy picking with rest strokes is good when you're doing alternate picking exclusively, but it's not very good when you're doing economy picking, (combined alternate/sweep picking) due to the downwards angle of the pick.

Economy picking = rest stroke picking with a pick direction change. I don't think upward economy picking works very well on acoustic guitar though, so I don't really use it when I want an acoustic/gypsy vibe.

Actually I've moved recently on electric to Benson picking which is a nice compromise - slightly more muted sound so sounds better for electric than acoustic IMO, also upward economy and alternate picking are doable too. You also get a fairly strong attack on the notes.

[MatsP]

Economy picking = rest stroke picking with a pick direction change. I don't think upward economy picking works very well on acoustic guitar though, so I don't really use it when I want an acoustic/gypsy vibe.

Actually I've moved recently on electric to Benson picking which is a nice compromise - slightly more muted sound so sounds better for electric than acoustic IMO, also upward economy and alternate picking are doable too. You also get a fairly strong attack on the notes.

I think you've got it wrong there, Christian. Economy picking (at least the type of picking Jimmy Bruno uses) is alternate picking combined with sweep picking in any direction, depending on if you're going to a lower or a higher string. Very logical, in my book. That's why the angle of the pick when using gypsy picking is not the best when going "upwards".

[MatsP]

I think you've got it wrong there, Christian. Economy picking (at least the type of picking Jimmy Bruno uses) is alternate picking combined with sweep picking in any direction, depending on if you're going to a lower or a higher string. Very logical, in my book. That's why the angle of the pick when using gypsy picking is not the best when going "upwards".

Check out Jimmy Bruno's "The Art of Picking", where he explains it very well.

[lawson-stone]

How hard do you pick? That's a pretty deep question.

When I started playing acoustic I reworked my technique so I was heavily picking with downward rest strokes. I started off being a real basher, but over the years I have started to realise that sheer force isn't necessary.

So hard do I pick? Not very - I keep my pick hand as relaxed as possible to stop it from locking up. My aim is to tread the fine line between playing with no tension and the pick falling out of my nerveless grasp. I want maximum power, minimum effort.

How loud am I as a player? I can play without an amp, in a group, if the audience is respectful :-) I am pretty loud player, although I try never to play 'louder than lovely' now.

When you make a rest stroke on the pick the movement is very natural the thing getting in the way is the string, which is springy. A good thing to explore is the feel of that springiness of the string and when it finally gives way.

For electric I like a more muted sound. Again it's not about right hand force but the physics of the way the sound is produced.

I like what Julian Lage says on the subject. Again he is a player who can project acoustically.

...

He discusses technique about 38m in.

Normally I don't have much patience for video workshops and lessons and such, but this is really worthwhile. It helps that he seems to be such a decent and thoughtful person. Nothing phony or off-putting. He also offers some very helpful ideas for getting out of what we "always sound like" which I found really useful.

Thanks for putting this up!

[MatsP]

Normally I don't have much patience for video workshops and lessons and such, but this is really worthwhile. It helps that he seems to be such a decent and thoughtful person. Nothing phony or off-putting. He also offers some very helpful ideas for getting out of what we "always sound like" which I found really useful.

Thanks for putting this up!

Yeah, and I agree on this talk about the pick "sliding off" the string instead of just "attacking it" from the air is indeed interesting. But it certainly takes practice. It's easy as long as it's only a matter of plucking one single note, of course. The trick is to have that feeling during longer runs as well. Now, he doesn't pick from the elbow, but I don't care, he seems to have a very relaxed wrist anyway. And he's a nice guy alright.

[AlainJazz]

I'm outing myself as a light picking wannabe. I really, really want to pick lightly. I practice at home. Put me on the bandstand though and it all goes out the window. I tend to naturally pick quite hard. No idea why. Trying to pick lightly in a live situation, it feels like the pick is sticking to the strings.

[mr. beaumont]

I'm outing myself as a light picking wannabe. I really, really want to pick lightly. I practice at home. Put me on the bandstand though and it all goes out the window. I tend to naturally pick quite hard. No idea why. Trying to pick lightly in a live situation, it feels like the pick is sticking to the strings.

If you really want to lighten your touch it helps to start with both hands...tune down a step and a half...now play in tune.

It seems to me almost all of my students who pick too hard fret too hard as well.

[MatsP]

If you really want to lighten your touch it helps to start with both hands...tune down a step and a half...now play in tune.

It seems to me almost all of my students who pick too hard fret too hard as well.

Yes, often those two things go hand in hand.

[MarkRhodes]

I think you've got it wrong there, Christian. Economy picking (at least the type of picking Jimmy Bruno uses) is alternate picking combined with sweep picking in any direction, depending on if you're going to a lower or a higher string. Very logical, in my book. That's why the angle of the pick when using gypsy picking is not the best when going "upwards".

I think Jimmy is a master at this but as you know, he dislikes the term "sweep" or "sweeping." For Jimmy, it's simple: on a single string, alternate pick; when changing to a higher string (such as B to high E) use a downstroke; when changing to a lower string (such as high E to B) use an upstroke. That's all there is to it. Easier said than done, but that's the crux of it.

I have his book / DVD. Last year I did a bit of work in it but set it aside to refine my picking motion some more. Finally that seems settled, so this is high on my list (-near the top of the stack) of books to get back to this year. Jimmy has incredible technique.

[jzucker]

I pick appropriately hard for the sound I'm trying to get. Benson was right in that the best tone is a fat pick with thin strings and a thin pick on thick strings.

On my archtops with Thomastik JS112 strings, I will often use a clayton black ravon .63mm pick. It's a bit thicker than a thin but not as heavy as a medium.

Other times, i'll use a dunlop tortex .73mm pick. It bends a lot less than the .63 but the .63 yields a slap that just makes it sound great.

And other times, I'll use a dunlop tortex 1mm pick. It does not bend at all.

How hard I pick is dependent on any number of factors but I vary it according to the sound I'm looking for.

With the .63mm pick, I have to pick quite a bit lighter to avoid the pick bending whereas with the 1mm pick I can pick a lot harder.

So the answer is...."YES"

[gggomez]

I am in there is only one rule and that is there are no rules in music except respect.

Man that Jimi has so many rules, listen to the sweet sweep picking of Grant Green in a song like Green's Greenery.

Have been learning Moanin' so many picking techniques/attacks requires. From the bouncy melody to the laconic piano chords in the head to the fire of Lee Morgans solo intro which then has much variation through out. I am in love with this song!

Of course you could play it with one technique but I think it is way more expressive if you can vary your technique.

On another topic I saw somewhere about no string bending. This is the third trumpet solo I have transcribed (the others being Chet Baker and Clifford Brown) and I hear plenty of 1/4 to 1/2 note bending especially by Brown and Morgan on the minor third, the 13th and the flat 5.

[MatsP]

I think Jimmy is a master at this but as you know, he dislikes the term "sweep" or "sweeping." For Jimmy, it's simple: on a single string, alternate pick; when changing to a higher string (such as B to high E) use a downstroke; when changing to a lower string (such as high E to B) use an upstroke. That's all there is to it. Easier said than done, but that's the crux of it.

I have his book / DVD. Last year I did a bit of work in it but set it aside to refine my picking motion some more. Finally that seems settled, so this is high on my list (-near the top of the stack) of books to get back to this year. Jimmy has incredible technique.

I have the book and the video as well, for the record, so I'm pretty well informed already, thank you. And I dislike the term "sweep picking" too. It sounds too "heavy metal". But we both know what it stands for. "Fall down" on a lower string, or "fall up", if you will, on a higher string.

And yes, Jimmy's technique is impeccable. I'm slowly getting the real hang of it as well.