I want to play FASTER!

[JonnyPac]

Like a guided meditation... nice.

[paynow]

I remember reading about the great sax player Johnny Griffin was accused of playing too fast in his day, reviewers saying things like his playing stops at the wrists, or sounds like cockroaches running up and down the keys. Shame, people bought into that and he was kinda shunned by a lot of listeners because of it. Of course the great players knew he was a monster who knew all the things all the greats did, but could do it faster.

My point is that not all players who like to play fast should not be tagged as mindless shredders. If you can't hear as fast as they can, then you really can't critique their choices. You can only say if you like to listen to it or not, and that is not a critique as such...

+1. Apparently the folks who made these accusations never heard "Full House" with Wes and JG.

[Kman]

I said this on an earlier thread a few weeks ago. I believe the best way to improve your fast playing is to check out as many different players as possible. They all play somewhat differently. They all have have different styles. You may stumble on somebody who's fast playing suites your style well and this can provide a lot of insight. So in summary, learn fast lines every day by many different players.

[brwnhornet59]

I said this on an earlier thread a few weeks ago. I believe the best way to improve your fast playing is to check out as many different players as possible. They all play somewhat differently. They all have have different styles. You may stumble on somebody who's fast playing suites your style well and is more comfortable for you and this can provide a lot of insight. So in summary, learn fast lines every day by many different players.

Variety is the spice of life, Jazz playing included. I say this all the time, the more ammo you have the better. Practice practice practice, especially listening!

[jazzgtrl4]

You know, Jazzpunk, during the past several months, since JonnyPac helped open my eyes to some "speed truths" I hadn't considered, I've wood-shedded and have, I think, hit upon some good stuff regarding tension and ridding oneself of it, to play better, faster, etc.

This might sound insane, but bear with me.

Get your guitar and pick and sit down. Now start imagining that all the muscles and nerves of your entire upper body are turning off. Go limp. Act as if you're dog-drunk, or are falling asleep -- and just fall forward over your guitar, letting your hands, wrists, arms, shoulders turn to pure rubber and even dangle. No tension. Zero.

Now, still pretending you're drunk or half asleep, sit back up and make a wide, tension-free picking motion at one of the strings. You can bearly sit up. Try again. Keep going till you can pick a string in this condition. Your pick grip should be so loose, you just might drop the thing. That's okay - just pick it back up. Keep a mental reading of the tension (or the lack of it!) in your upper body. Now, let yourself pick down and up on one string. Pick as lightly as is humanly possible. This is crucial. Do this several times, not concerning yourself with strict timing or tone -- nothing but being free of tension while sort of picking.

Gradually (still monitoring yourself for zero tension) pick faster (60 bmp, 1 note per click maybe, but don't use a metronome), and hold your pick as if it could fall to the floor -- and you should aim to make it feel as if you are simply "brushing" the string with the pick. Do NOT try to play with any loudness at all. That will come easily, soon enough.

Are you picking with no tension now? You should be. If not, back up, start over. If so, keep going. Make the pick movement SUPER TINY. Brush up, brush down. Quiet, soft, so loose in your hands and arms and shoulders you still look drunk, or as if you're falling asleep.

Only increase speed when you can do so without bringing any tension to any of your muscles. Now, you'll be VERY SURPRISED how little time it takes to turn this "drunken picking" into tension-free tremolo-speed picking. Just make it quiet, soft, no concern with volume or tone.

Do this a lot. Before you know it, you'll be able to tighten up on the pick just a bit, and BAM, there's your volume and tone, with the speed. But if tension creeps in, back off.

Let me know if this works. It's lately done wonders for me. I am tension-less now, and I used to tense up really bad.

kj

Hi thanks for this, very interesting. Im an economy picker and i have a problem with tension. I tried this a few times and i can see what your talking about. Ill keep working on it. So when your picking a string are you doing anything with the fretting hand or just using an open string?? also my tension seems to start in the shoulders...actually i find when i stand up sometimes there is less tension.

[Kojo27]

Like a guided meditation... nice.

Yeah! I do those all the time, btw. For lots of things. Alpha is my friend. Heh.

[Kojo27]

Hi thanks for this, very interesting. Im an economy picker and i have a problem with tension. I tried this a few times and i can see what your talking about. Ill keep working on it. So when your picking a string are you doing anything with the fretting hand or just using an open string?? also my tension seems to start in the shoulders...actually i find when i stand up sometimes there is less tension.

When I'm doing the drunken picking, I begin VERY "drunk"... and let myself sober up gradually, very gradually. Nothing with the left hand at first - usually I pick the open second string, but that's just me. And the "pick-swing" changes from a fairly wide one ("drunken") to one with almost *no* wasted motion, while still in the drunken state. It's really alpha state; if you're familiar with meditation techniques, you know about that. Maintain just enough wakefulness to monitor and rid yourself of tension and keep the picking super soft.

Besides maintaining zero tension, the most crucial thing is to pick so lightly that the string barely sounds, if at all. "Brush" the string - that's how it feels to me. Don't worry about timing at all, nor about tone or volume. Just zero tension at any price. Once the tension is gone, it's surprising how easy it is to speed up, still picking softly. I worked up to playing a Troy Stetina exercise at 132, playing 4 notes per click, in this state of mind, and with this low-volume touch. The exercise was one of those single-string "surf" solos, where you pick open string 3 times, then 12th fret once, then open three times, 11th fret, open 3x, then 10th fret, etc. Good speed builders.


If you want some of these exercises, let me know. I'll try to communicate them better.

kj

[max chill]

Whoever can play the fastest wins, and becomes king. When you are musical royalty, all must bow before you and say "long live the king". At this stage, you must own the most expensive gear possible, or the people in the kingdom will laugh behind your back.

[cosmic gumbo]

Speed is great, but my brain has a switch that shuts it off after it reaches critical mass. Once it's heard it's fill of notes, it doesn't want to hear any more. My advice is, you shouldn't use all your notes up in the first song. Save some for later...speed seems so much faster if you mix it in with some slow stuff. Musicians should play like they have to pay for every note.

[GuyB]

... My advice is, you shouldn't use all your notes up in the first song. Save some for later...

I did that but at the end of the tune, I got stuck with a pack of notes left

[mr. beaumont]

Balance is key...threre's a difference in playing fast and saying something versus just playing fast.

And yeah, sometimes it's okay if all you're saying is "yeah, take that beeyatch!"

Sometimes.

I really don't see it as any more complex than that.

[brwnhornet59]

Whoever can play the fastest wins, and becomes king. When you are musical royalty, all must bow before you and say "long live the king". At this stage, you must own the most expensive gear possible, or the people in the kingdom will laugh behind your back.

Max, have you been hanging out with Truth?? LMAO!!!


ALL BOW!!

[drobniuch]

Speed is great, but my brain has a switch that shuts it off after it reaches critical mass. Once it's heard it's fill of notes, it doesn't want to hear any more. My advice is, you shouldn't use all your notes up in the first song. Save some for later...speed seems so much faster if you mix it in with some slow stuff. Musicians should play like they have to pay for every note.

+1

[Wheels]

Speed is great if it's handled with taste. If it's not it's just...well you know the term.

[davekain]

I think there is a BIG difference between playing fast and shredding. Playing fast to me means being capable to play faster phrases with good sound, in time and with good articulation as they can come up in solos and/or actual written parts/heads. This is important for all instruments and it is unfortunate that guitar players can be labeled "shredders" for having good technique. For me, I don't want to ever have anything be presented to me that I cannot play due to lack of technical ability. That is why I practice and try to maintain my technical abilities.

Lately, I have simply been practicing playing scales. Nothing fancy or exotic. Nothing you don't probably already know. But I try to play them at a moderate tempo, up and down and I try to get as even a sound for EACH AND EVERY note as I possibly can. You'd be surprised how difficult it is to simply get a good, even, round tone/sound just going up and down a simple major scale. I've always been a "technical player" and it's been amazing me how much my overall sound and articulation has been improving by just simply doing this. It's also VERY important to make sure you are doing it with a completely relaxed picking arm. If your picking arm is getting tight or tense, you're doing it wrong and need to make sure it is relaxed. If it is getting tight while playing at home, it certainly will in a live playing situation.

I also don't think those 1 2 3 4 type picking exercises are very helpful since you hardly or almost never use them in a real life situation. Make the most of your practice time and practice technique with scales and arpeggios you are actually going to use in a performance situation.

[Kojo27]

...it is unfortunate that guitar players can be labeled "shredders" for having good technique.

I always thought players (especially younger players) STRIVE for the title "shredder." I thought it was like "bad-ass" -- or has the meaning changed? Nor have I ever heard a player who plays fast and clean (Al DiMeola?) necessarily called a shredder. "Fusion virtuoso," maybe. Is "shredder" really a pejorative term now?

I also don't think those 1 2 3 4 type picking exercises are very helpful since you hardly or almost never use them in a real life situation. Make the most of your practice time and practice technique with scales and arpeggios you are actually going to use in a performance situation.

I'm not sure what you're calling "...those 1 2 3 4 type picking exercises..." Finger combinations? Counting while playing? Playing groups of four notes in sequence? Help, please....

kj

[davekain]

I always thought players (especially younger players) STRIVE for the title "shredder." I thought it was like "bad-ass" -- or has the meaning changed? Nor have I ever heard a player who plays fast and clean (Al DiMeola?) necessarily called a shredder. "Fusion virtuoso," maybe. Is "shredder" really a pejorative term now?




I'm not sure what you're calling "...those 1 2 3 4 type picking exercises..." Finger combinations? Counting while playing? Playing groups of four notes in sequence? Help, please....

kj

Maybe it's me but I've always thought or taken the term shredder as a negative term. Someone who plays fast and possesses "no feeling". I wouldn't call DiMeola a shredder just because he is certainly capable of playing "music" and not just mindless shredding. That's another thing. I also associate the word shredding with mindless. I always associate the word shredder with all those guitar players from the 80's. Yngwie Malmsteen, Paul Gilbert, Vinnie Moore. The whole shrapnel records thing.

I'm talking about those exercises where you play 1st fret, 1st finger-2nd fret, 2nd finger and so on in various groups on several or all strings. They just seem like a wasted step in your practice routine since they are hardly applicable to musical situations.

[Kojo27]

Maybe it's me but I've always thought or taken the term shredder as a negative term. Someone who plays fast and possesses "no feeling". I wouldn't call DiMeola a shredder just because he is certainly capable of playing "music" and not just mindless shredding. That's another thing. I also associate the word shredding with mindless. I always associate the word shredder with all those guitar players from the 80's. Yngwie Malmsteen, Paul Gilbert, Vinnie Moore. The whole shrapnel records thing.

I'm talking about those exercises where you play 1st fret, 1st finger-2nd fret, 2nd finger and so on in various groups on several or all strings. They just seem like a wasted step in your practice routine since they are hardly applicable to musical situations.

Yikes. Fast and no feeling -- hmm. I agree in some cases, even many cases, but unless I'm wrong, these guys like the term and are proud to say, "I play shred." Troy Stetina says in one of his bestselling guitar books, "I'll always be a shredder at heart." He teaches a music conservatory in Wisconsin - pretty good musician. I can't listen to it, though. I hear "shred" and run the other way. Put it this way: I've never heard any shred that I liked.

The finger combinations are good for building sheer strength and flexibility, especially if you combine legato with them. There's one I mentioned just minutes ago in another thread that I've done almost every day of my musical life - got it from a Frederick Noad book. They have a place, imho. Don't spend an hour a day at it! Ha!

[Kojo27]

Google "Buy a shred guitar" - or something similar. I got this:



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On and on and on.

[Astronomer]

Maybe it's me but I've always thought or taken the term shredder as a negative term. Someone who plays fast and possesses "no feeling". I wouldn't call DiMeola a shredder just because he is certainly capable of playing "music" and not just mindless shredding. That's another thing. I also associate the word shredding with mindless. I always associate the word shredder with all those guitar players from the 80's. Yngwie Malmsteen, Paul Gilbert, Vinnie Moore. The whole shrapnel records thing.

I still don't see how the word shredder deserved its negative connotation. Obviously speed is an acquired skill that should be used tastefully, but there's no reason to discredit everyone who plays in the style of the guitarists you mentioned. I personally like all of the shredders you've mentioned as well as others like Marty Friedman, Jason Becker, Michael Romeo and some of the more fusion-y players like Greg Howe. Aside from the fact that Malmsteen is a bit of an arrogant jerk who does tend to overuse neo-classical speed licks, the others do a brilliant job in pushing the boundaries of what this instrument is capable of. None of it is mindless and none of it is "just" running scales and sweep picking arpeggios. Anyway, my point is that true shredders get a bad rep just because they utilize their technical chops, when in reality, they not only vary in style but in how they approach and display their speed. It may be not "musical" enough for some people, but I enjoy it just as much as jazz, blues, rap, metal, etc.

Examples of different "shredders":

[davekain]

I still don't see how the word shredder deserved its negative connotation. Obviously speed is an acquired skill that should be used tastefully, but there's no reason to discredit everyone who plays in the style of the guitarists you mentioned. I personally like all of the shredders you've mentioned as well as others like Marty Friedman, Jason Becker, Michael Romeo and some of the more fusion-y players like Greg Howe. Aside from the fact that Malmsteen is a bit of arrogant jerk and does tend to overuse neo-classical speed licks, the others do a brilliant job in pushing the boundaries of what this instrument is capable of. None of it is mindless and none of it is "just" running scales and sweep picking arpeggios. Anyway, my point is that true shredders get a bad rep just because they utilize their technical chops, when in reality, they not only vary in style but in how they approach and display their speed. It may be not "musical" enough for some people, but I enjoy it just as much as jazz, blues, rap, metal, etc.

Examples of different "shredders":

I'm saying for me, the many "shredders" I've come in contact with are completely focused on "shredding" and music is a FAR second. They don't see the musical abilities that make the "shredders" previously mentioned musically gifted. Their sole focus is getting those picks and fingers moving as fast as possible and don't care if they are playing the right notes or anything of musical merit. It's all about machismo and flexing their muscles. Just show me how to play fast. I don't care about learning anything. Just impressing anyone with solely the finger gymnastics anyone can learn by sitting in a practice room for 18 hours a day.

Don't get me wrong. I listened to ALL of the "shredders" mentioned here. I think we can all agree that technique, like anything else is used best in moderation.

[Astronomer]

I'm saying for me, the many "shredders" I've come in contact with are completely focused on "shredding" and music is a FAR second. They don't see the musical abilities that make the "shredders" previously mentioned musically gifted. Their sole focus is getting those picks and fingers moving as fast as possible and don't care if they are playing the right notes or anything of musical merit. It's all about machismo and flexing their muscles. Just show me how to play fast. I don't care about learning anything. Just impressing anyone with solely the finger gymnastics anyone can learn by sitting in a practice room for 18 hours a day.

Don't get me wrong. I listened to ALL of the "shredders" mentioned here. I think we can all agree that technique, like anything else is used best in moderation.

I definitely agree with you on that last part. And yeah, there are a lot of guitarists out there who'd rather show off their finger gymnastics above everything else. I guess they just don't see it as part of the bigger picture. I have to admit though, I only started getting into this whole idea of shredding a couple of months ago and when I first heard those guitarists, my mind melted. It changed my entire perception on what I wanted to create as a musician. When I heard of how old these people were when they started playing, I was shocked and a bit motivated to get that well on my instrument. I'm still under the mentality that if I productively practice every day that I'll be just as good when I become 21 in 4 years or so. I don't see shredding as this ticket to instant awesomeness, but rather as another tool to manipulate and incorporate into my playing.

[davekain]

I definitely agree with you on that last part. And yeah, there are a lot of guitarists out there who'd rather show off their finger gymnastics above everything else. I guess they just don't see it as part of the bigger picture. I have to admit though, I only started getting into this whole idea of shredding a couple of months ago and when I first heard those guitarists, my mind melted. It changed my entire perception on what I wanted to create as a musician. When I heard of how old these people were when they started playing, I was shocked and a bit motivated to get that well on my instrument. I'm still under the mentality that if I productively practice every day that I'll be just as good when I become 21 in 4 years or so. I don't see shredding as this ticket to instant awesomeness, but rather as another tool to manipulate and incorporate into my playing.

Wow. Didn't realize you were only 17. I was listening to these "shredders" 25 years ago. Now I feel old:-(

[brwnhornet59]

Ya know, I don't mind shredders when they are being musical. I have heard a good amount that is good, but more that is not. In a musical context, I respect it, but I am not a big fan of the heavy metal neo classical scene anymore simply because I don't dig being blown out of my seat with walls of sound and distortion.

On the flip side, I have seen and heard some of my hero's do this mindless exercise, apparently to please the crowds, in a very boring way especially for their talent. Frank Gambale, Shawn Lane, who are both hero's of mine, did a version of So What with Brett Garsed. I found the whole thing boring and uninspired. Great shredding though.

So in this respect, I agree with Dave's position. I like overall musicality.

You tell me, is this inspiring? Again great playing but of no musicality. It sounds like a jam track to me. IMHO

[brwnhornet59]

I am surprised that I never saw him before. Dude has talent!!