Chunking, does it work for Jazz improv?

[GuyBoden]

Chunking?

Is 'Chunking' simply learning things in small chunks, like you might have done at Uni?

But, my question is, "Does Chunking work for learning Jazz improv ?"

Obviously, there's a video explanation on YouTube.

[Tal_175]

Most people call what's described in the video as learning vocabulary.

[nyc chaz]

Seems to be the similar to Randy Vincent's Cellular Approach which is a great way to learn to improvise.

[GuyBoden]

Most people call what's described in the video as learning vocabulary.

Seems to be the similar to Randy Vincent's Cellular Approach which is a great way to learn to improvise.

Maybe, it's learning 'Jazz Vocabulary' in very small parts (Chunks) that's the slight difference.

I've learned a lot of 1-2 bars licks, so maybe I've been excessively Chunking without using the term.

[Tal_175]

Maybe, it's learning 'Jazz Vocabulary' in very small parts (Chunks) that's the slight difference.

I've learned a lot of 1-2 bars licks, so maybe I've been excessively Chunking without using the term.

In the way I understand these terms, licks are complete phrases whereas vocabulary are building blocks. These aren't precise concepts and some things can be both but I think it's generally a useful distinction.

[pamosmusic]

In the way I understand these terms, licks are complete phrases whereas vocabulary are building blocks. These aren't precise concepts and some things can be both but I think it's generally a useful distinction.

We’ve had back and forth on this before, and those are terms without super standard definitions.

In my experience, for example, they refer to the same thing, but vocabulary is used more generally and licks more specifically — “I need to get more vocabulary so I’m checking out this Wes lick.”

Something that does have a more standard definition — at least in education circles — is “chunking.”

It’s usually defined along the lines of “breaking up complicated concepts into smaller, meaningful chunks.”

(How Do I Chunk Content to Increase Learning? : Center for Teaching & Learning : UMass Amherst)

With music, I think the main thing we miss is the “meaningful” part.

Playing changes is a great example — we tend to work on whole tunes and on single chords, maybe playing ii-Vs as an intermediate step, but there are lots more meaningful phrases to work on in there too. Like in Autumn Leaves, you could work on four bar subphrases, eight bar phrases, the entire last sixteen. Working your way up to the whole tune, but also tackling progressively larger chunks.

For learning lines — I think maybe it’s being more creative about what you see in side of the line. Small pieces like digital patterns, enclosures, blues gestures, arpeggios. Larger pieces like multi bar sub phrases or parts that navigate a common chord or progression. Then conceptual things.

Or thinking of it differently — approaching it from a technical standpoint, then approaching its structure by transposing, then approaching its content by breaking it apart, then thinking about it conceptually.

[Tal_175]

We’ve had back and forth on this before, and those are terms without super standard definitions.

In my experience, for example, they refer to the same thing, but vocabulary is used more generally and licks more specifically — “I need to get more vocabulary so I’m checking out this Wes lick.”

Something that does have a more standard definition — at least in education circles — is “chunking.”

It’s usually defined along the lines of “breaking up complicated concepts into smaller, meaningful chunks.”

(How Do I Chunk Content to Increase Learning? : Center for Teaching & Learning : UMass Amherst)

With music, I think the main thing we miss is the “meaningful” part.

Playing changes is a great example — we tend to work on whole tunes and on single chords, maybe playing ii-Vs as an intermediate step, but there are lots more meaningful phrases to work on in there too. Like in Autumn Leaves, you could work on four bar subphrases, eight bar phrases, the entire last sixteen. Working your way up to the whole tune, but also tackling progressively larger chunks.

For learning lines — I think maybe it’s being more creative about what you see in side of the line. Small pieces like digital patterns, enclosures, blues gestures, arpeggios. Larger pieces like multi bar sub phrases or parts that navigate a common chord or progression. Then conceptual things.

Or thinking of it differently — approaching it from a technical standpoint, then approaching its structure by transposing, then approaching its content by breaking it apart, then thinking about it conceptually.

I think you are conflating two concepts. Breaking up a large material into small chucks, like learning a classical piece bar by bar or learning Autumn Leaves as 4 bar phrases vs learning building blocks (ie vocabulary). Learning vocabulary is a completely different concept than memorizing a long piece. It's not about learning a continuous piece, it's extracting a small parts to reuse it in different contexts creatively.

[pamosmusic]

I think you are conflating two concepts. Breaking up a large material into small chucks, like learning a classical piece bar by bar or learning Autumn Leaves as 4 bar phrases. Learning vocabulary is a completely different concept. It's not about learning a continuous piece, it's extracting a small part to reuse it in different contexts creatively.

Not conflating.

Second half of the post:

For learning lines — I think maybe it’s being more creative about what you see in side of the line. Small pieces like digital patterns, enclosures, blues gestures, arpeggios. Larger pieces like multi bar sub phrases or parts that navigate a common chord or progression. Then conceptual things.

Or thinking of it differently — approaching it from a technical standpoint, then approaching its structure by transposing, then approaching its content by breaking it apart, then thinking about it conceptually.

Id also say you can extract parts of tunes to use creatively in different contexts too, but yeah.

[Tal_175]

Not conflating.

Second half of the post:



Id also say you can extract parts of tunes to use creatively in different contexts too, but yeah.

I see, I thought you were disagreeing with my post. So it seems like you weren't.

[pamosmusic]

I see, I thought you were disagreeing with my post. So it seems like you weren't.

Nope. We'd probably agree.

You'd noted your definitions of vocabulary and licks, which (as you said) aren't super standard (and neither would be anyone's). But Guy had mentioned up top some question about what "chunking" entails, and it's worth noting that that's a term that a lot of folks in the education field** understand in a fairly standard way.

As for the content, I think we'd probably agree. I tell students that when you have a challenge in front of you, your first instincts should be to "take it slower and make it smaller." Everyone understands what it means to take it slower, though most people should probably take things wayyyyyy slower than they do at first. But we can be super creative about what it means to make something smaller.

There's the obvious thing I mentioned first -- literally just breaking it up into pieces. Tunes break into sections, sections into phrases, phrases into subphrases, subphrases into motives or changes or whatever. People generally get that. But there are also a lot of other ways to make the challenge smaller.

A good first one is to make it a purely technical exercise. Can your fingers do the thing?
After that, you might try to play with the rhythm, maybe just with your hands and no instrument. Can you hear how it lines up and what makes it work?
Can you improvise with it? Break it into parts and try playing with the small pieces.
What ideas are in there? Are there diatonic thirds? Is there a triad thing? Are there enclosures?
Can you improvise with those things? Can you use them in other contexts.

You can do all that stuff, or more and more stuff, or stop whenever the thing stops exciting you.

** I'm a bit of an interloper in the education field -- at least formally. I teach in a public school but through a different organization, so I don't have all the formal training but work with lots of people who do, so the terminology sinks in. At least the big stuff.

[GuyBoden]

With music, I think the main thing we miss is the “meaningful” part.

In your experience, have you found that learning music in very small 1bar 'Chunks' beneficial?

[Tal_175]

You'd noted your definitions of vocabulary and licks, which (as you said) aren't super standard (and neither would be anyone's). But Guy had mentioned up top some question about what "chunking" entails, and it's worth noting that that's a term that a lot of folks in the education field** understand in a fairly standard way.

I see where you're coming from but I am under the impression that the "fairly standard way" the term is understood in music education is a method for memorizing a score or addressing technical challenges by focusing on perfecting (or learning) small chunks at a time. In the context of jazz improvisation, I think "learning vocabulary from Donna Lee" would be a more standard way to describe the activity shown in the video than saying "learning chunks from Donna Lee".

[AllanAllen]

Guys who are afraid of licks, usually because of YouTube videos, say they learn vocabulary, or cells, or chunks.

It’s all the same and the audience only cares if you sound good. The critical jazz listener is a straw man, nobody at the coffee shop is analyzing your lines in real time. I’d wager the same for people at the Green Mill or Village Vanguard.

[GuyBoden]

I see where you're coming from. I am under the impression that the "fairly standard way" the term is understood in music education is a method for memorizing a score or addressing technical challenges by focusing on perfecting (or learning) small chunks at a time. In the context of jazz improvisation, I think "learning vocabulary from Donna Lee" would be a more standard way to describe the activity shown in the video than saying "learning chunks from Donna Lee".

The difference I see in the video is that he is learning one bar at a time, when I usually would learn a whole phrase. Each bar in the video fits with the 'Chunking' method, so this makes a good YouTube video. But, would learning each bar in most songs fit the 'Chunking' method?, I don't think it would.

[James W]

Someone mentioned Randy Vincent's Cellular Approach book.

This might also be of interest:

Melodic Cells for Jazz Guitar: The Quickest Way to Master Tension, Resolution & Phrasing on Jazz Guitar (Learn How to Play Jazz Guitar) eBook : Noy, Oz, Pettingale, Tim, Alexander, Joseph: Amazon.co.uk: Books

[GuyBoden]

Guys who are afraid of licks, usually because of YouTube videos, say they learn vocabulary, or cells, or chunks.

It’s all the same and the audience only cares if you sound good. The critical jazz listener is a straw man, nobody at the coffee shop is analyzing your lines in real time. I’d wager the same for people at the Green Mill or Village Vanguard.

I think 'Chunking' is a learning method to help you learn a song or learn improv on a song in small 'Chunks'. Not about playing live.

[Tone bar]

Of course 'chunking' works for improv, it's extremely important. How do you think you'll ever work up a killer solo if you never work on individual parts and ideas, and just try to wing it for years on end? You break down specific parts and ideas, like 2-5s, how to approach cells of different chord progressions, licks, blues gestures, other scales or tonalities you want to introduce, how you want to frame the form overall..

[pamosmusic]

I see where you're coming from but I am under the impression that the "fairly standard way" the term is understood in music education is a method for memorizing a score or addressing technical challenges by focusing on perfecting (or learning) small chunks at a time. In the context of jazz improvisation, I think "learning vocabulary from Donna Lee" would be a more standard way to describe the activity shown in the video than saying "learning chunks from Donna Lee".

I didn’t say “music education.”

I said “education.”

Chunking has some more meaning as it’s used in teacher education. For example in the article I linked. Maybe not something a guitar teacher would know incidentally, but something a classroom music teacher might know from the classes or professional development required for certification.

[AllanAllen]

I think 'Chunking' is a learning method to help you learn a song or learn improv on a song in small 'Chunks'. Not about playing live.

Why would you learn improv if not to play live?

In reply to a prior question, I think you can chunk by bars at first, when I was first starting to read 2 bars was an achievement, but for playing music, you’d want to chunk by lick, or phrase, or melodic cell. Whatever synonym your self confidence allows.

[Christian Miller]

It’s chunks all the way down baby!

(Except when it isn’t.)

Some music does seem sort of resistant to this type of approach. It’s always interesting when that happens, but bebop, blues, baroque, all very chunky on the whole.

So chunking for guitar teaching means at least in part automating a certain set of movements and a sound through practice. A scale is a chunk, a chord grip, an arpeggio pattern.

I was teaching Romanza to a student today and that obviously suits a very chunked approach for example. It doesn’t mean you are teaching one bar at a time, but in this case it means you automate the right hand arpeggio pattern, then play the top line melody of the first few bars, then put it together.

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