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Hi, thanks for reading. I'm 21 years old, have been playing guitar for two years. Before that I played violin for 7 years, placing top 3 in some competitions. I fell in love with wes montgomery's tone, phrasing, and swing. I want to apply to bachelor's programs for jazz guitar.
I started off learning with the pick, didn't like the tone, and have since been playing with my thumb. string crossing from high to low strings is tough, and speed is a big issue too. I have no knowledge of what jazz schools are looking for; is thumb-only playing technically proficient enough to get admitted? do you have to play blindingly fast? (i don't really like the sound of super-fast flat picked clean tone guitar anyway...)
i literally know nothing about what is acceptable in modern jazz guitar. thank you for reading.
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04-20-2025 03:10 PM
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A lot of jazz schools are very specific in their technical requirements. A lot are very vague.
Originally Posted by eddie chai
Id look at a lot of schools — even ones you’re not interested in — just to get a sense.
I just had a student get into a very good music school for jazz and contemporary music and she plays thumb and fingers. A lot of p i alternation.
I will say:
I think for most people, most of the time, who want to become well rounded jazz players, a pick will work better.
No matter what you choose to work with, playing your basic scales in two octaves in eighth notes at about 120 is probably plenty. And you should be able to improvise convincingly at 200bpm (which is not the same as spidery bebop lines necessarily). Most schools will have a tune on the rep list that needs to be played at least there so that they can check your comfort at those tempos — Oleo and Ladybird are favorites.
I would absolutely expect to answer questions about why you chose to play with a thumb and how you expect to overcome the technical hurdles it presents. Most schools are looking not for the best players, but (however imperfectly) for the players who show the most potential and openness to learning.
Right or wrong, a player who uses their thumb and not a pick will suggest first to them someone who is a little inflexible. Because that person has almost certainly been advised by at least one person to try a pick. Did they try and give up? Did they refuse to take the advice? Do they have mature musical reasons for not doing it?
It can be fine to play with your thumb but there you go.
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I recall a story of Berklee giving Kevin Eubanks a hard time about not playing with a pick...
Maybe things have changed? There are certainly a lot of players with diverse right hand techniques these days. I'm sure you could reach out to the guitarists teaching at the programs you're interested in and see what they have to say.
I've been all thumb for the last 15 years or so. A couple tips that helped me out.
I was too young to have seen Wes Montgomery live, but I've had long talks about Wes' technique with both John Abercrombie and Carmen Caramanica, who did. The consensus is it's essentially all downstrokes with the thumb, and it's the way Wes organizes his left hand approach that allows the thumb technique to work (I hear Wes do the occasional upstroke, usually on triplet octave or chord flourishes, but I don't hear him doing any kind of 'alternate picking') There are some good video examples of Wes' left hand out there, there's a lot to learn there for those inclined
John Abercrombie advised me to use a clean-boost pedal to make up for the lack of thumb volume compared to a pick. I don't know what kind of guitar you're using, that might be a tip for semi-hollow or solid bodies rather then a big full size arch top ..
Best wishes for your music!
PK
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What’s your career goal? If you don’t want to be a music teacher you might consider getting a liberal arts associates degree from NYUC and moonlighting in jazz.
No matter what you do, playing live jazz music will be your 2nd or 3rd source of income. There just aren’t enough gigs to play 5 nights a week and make rent.
Nobody on the forum is an honest to God full time jazz musician. We have some guys subsidizing retirement income with gigs, but nobody is paying their rent with just gigs.
Just something to consider.
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The way I see it, if you’re going to college for something, there are a lot of majors that don’t really have immediate translation into work. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Economics, philosophy, business, and English, are sort of equally abstract.
Not sure going to a nice state school and studying music is much different than going to a nice state school and studying history. A private conservatory or out of state is another story, obvs.
If you want to study something that will pay for itself, trade school is the way to go, probably.
Actually music education would be an example of a major that translates pretty immediately into qualification for a real job that’s in pretty high demand at the moment. Unfortunately it depends on the state these days, but still.
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Yeah for the record, if I had a student who wanted to play with their thumb, it’s cool and people do it. Originally Posted by paulkogut
But I do think it’s probably a bit of a handicap on a college audition.
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Wes Montgomery is one of the most influential jazz guitarists that ever lived. He didn't start playing guitar until age 19 after hearing a Charlie Christian record. He had no formal musical education and taught himself guitar. By the age of 20 he was on the road with Lionel Hampton. He picked with his thumb.
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Playing with your thumb exclusively is going to hinder your development.Most people can't be Wes Montgomery.There are hundreds of different picks in an assortment of sizes and different materials.You should be able to find one that suits your idea of good tone.Once you get proficient with a pick,you can still use your thumb as a changeup,many guitarists do.Eventually you should also learn to play with your fingers,can't have enough tools in the toolbox to express yourself.Good luck!
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I didn’t get a college education in jazz guitar, or music for that matter. However, if you are finding some prejudicial circumstances concerning your technique I suggest finding something that you can show that you accel at that changes your critics’ preconceptions. Be a great interpreter or composer, for example. Blow them away so they don’t fixate on only one of your dimensions.
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If you play with your thumb and like it then why waste time trying to please some jerks at a jazz school? Audition and be you and don't make any apologies for what you are doing on a guitar, ever. If you don't get in, well, you don't need a degree to play gigs.
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I don't see the problem... as long as you can fit in the requirements, hang comfortably at certain tempos, play scales at tempos etc. Then they shouldn't care.
If you use it as an excuse oh I play with a thumb so I can't play that fast... then yea it's a problem.
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If you like to play with your thumb, go for it.
If you would like to study music in college, or with anyone at all, you should be prepared to accept criticism of your technique and be willing to make changes.
Saying that Wes played with his thumb isn’t necessarily an argument for it. He’s one of the greatest guitarists of all time. Dizzy Gillespie played trumpet with his cheeks puffed out, but that doesn’t mean you should tell your trumpet teacher to f*** off when he tells you that’s not a great idea. There are reasons why technical pedagogy develops over time, and outliers don’t negate the effectiveness of the pedagogy for a large majority of the people approaching an instrument.
As a teacher, you have to find a balance between being encouraging and flexible, and being realistic and straightforward.
The student I mentioned above heard me on all the reasons I thought a pick was a good idea. She had some good answers for why she preferred it. I wasn’t super convinced but she was. So we moved on. I held her to all the same standards as far as speed and articulation and all that good stuff, and she did a really good job. Great ear and very musical, too. Anyway —
If I have a student telling me that they want to study music in college, they’re essentially telling me that they’d like to make the largest investment they’ll make until they buy their first house, and spend 3-4 hours a day practicing because they’re serious about music. If I’m not straight with them, then I’m not doing them any favors at all.
Can you play great jazz guitar with your thumb? Of course you can.
Is it going to come with limitations? It absolutely will.
A school will require you to play Donna Lee at some point. It will require you to execute scales and etudes at pretty fast tempos. It will require you to play solis with saxophones and match their articulation as best you can — meaning slurring when they slur, attacking when they attack.
I think if you’re going to study music in school and you’re ready to go to the mat to play with your thumb, you should be ready to meet those challenges and have answers to people who are skeptical. They might be skeptical because they’re small minded jerks, or they might be skeptical because they have some decent reason to be. You can usually tell one from the other when you’re in a room together.
For the folks who aren’t just jerks, “Well, Wes did it” isnt going to cut it as an answer. It shows someone hasn’t really thought much about the decision musically.
So — what do you like about playing with your thumb?
Are there advantages that offset the technical limitations?
Are there ways you’re able to compensate for the technical limitations so that you’re able to play fast passages?
etc etc
It’s stuff to think about.
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I saw George Benson on a video just picked up a guitar and start shredding with a thumb, didn't miss a note. Somehow figured out a way to do upstrokes I guess. I've seen J. Abercrombie at Berklee once, he was playing with a thumb also, the whole show. There is a way to do it, but there is a reason why most guitarists don't go that road, at least not exclusively.
OTOH I believe you can adapt any techinque if you put enough time, you can play with your toe if you wanna, and sound good. Or you can play with a pick and suck. If you got talent and determination, you make it work either way. Also, with or without the school.
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Another thought, your fretting hand needs to be super good, you'll depend a lot on it, for speed and articulation. Slurs will be your best bet at high tempos.
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The technique shouldn't matter if you can play.
I mean, if you used a plectrum but were not great, that doesn't say much about using a plectrum per se - like asking if a college would accept you even though you use a plectrum.
So what's really the issue here must be that you still need to develop your technique, whatever technique that might happen to be.
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Okay. Hypothetical. Originally Posted by James W
Will a great classical program accept you even though don’t use your thumb?
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No. But classical is different to jazz. No classical player has ever not used their thumb, whereas some distinguished jazz players have been thumb players. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
You'll have to tell my what point you're making with this hypothetical?
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My point is that saying “Wes did it” or saying that it doesn’t matter if you can play well enough, isn’t really particularly useful information. Originally Posted by James W
Most college auditions aren’t on the Chaconne or Eternal Triangle anyway. They’re looking for potential and people they think will excel in their program. Not for people who are killing it right this second. Though it would be nice to find one of those.
So if someone walks in and plays Lagrima beautifully — for a less absurd example — by hopping around with only their thumb and their index finger. Should they expect the guitar teacher to think of that as a limitation or not?
If someone walks in and plays Lady Bird with their thumb, my question would be … I wonder how they’d do with Moose the Mooch.
When you’re looking at whether or not someone will do well in your program over the long term, why shouldn’t the technique matter? It absolutely should matter. And I’m not saying it’s bad or won’t get you in. I’m just saying you should expect a teacher to see it as a limitation and be able to answer questions about why you made that choice.
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Why? It's not just Wes. Someone posted a clip of Jim Mullen. The point is that it's possible to make great music just using the thumb. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I don't accept this analogy. No famous concert classical guitarist would do as you describe, whereas like I say, there have been and still are distinguished jazz players who use their thumb. It may be a limitation but then there are limitations in some plectrum techniques such as the gypsy jazz style - upstroke escape. You create through limitation. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
It is a limitation. But, like I say, it's how well you use it, and also - the plectrum often comes with its own limitations. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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The jazz schools I've been involved with wouldn't hold that against you, at all. And they're very well respected schools in a city known for great jazz school alums. What they WOULD hold against you is lack of knowledge, and a lack of idea of how to use what technique you have.
If you played a perfect Stella by rote with no feeling using a pick it wouldn't get you nearly as far as being able to play Autumn Leaves with only a thumb and a leaving the auditors with the impression that this was your interpretation and your instrument which you show ownership of.
Show musicianship. Be yourself and pull it off. They'll want you.
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I don't think it's true in jazz program. I got into Berklee for summer guitar session on scholarship in the 90's, by submitting a cassette tape. No video. They will listen with their ears first, I think it's true till this day. At least I hope so. Jazz and Classical is not compartible. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I’ve already said he can probably satisfy the requirements of an audition using just his thumb, but that he should be ready account for those technical limitations.
And I know the analogy seems silly, but I don’t accept “other people do it” as a useful answer to questions about the technical limitations.
He should play a bop head probably at an up tempo and have answers ready if folks ask. The specifics of the program and teacher matter here to.
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I think I'll leave comment to those who've actually been on conservatoire performance courses, but by and large I think the amount of teaching that people dedicate to technique at college seems (from conversations) to depend quite a bit on the specific teacher.
As well as institution. Interestingly at one UK school it was still a requirement until quite recently to take some classical guitar even as a jazz student. They've stopped doing that now.
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That’s it Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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