three fingers technique

[Christian Miller]

I agree. Also, I may also have been ruined.

What I'm saying is that 3 finger/thumb over technique is just as biomechanically advantageous with the neck positioned parallel to the ground as classical position for low tension fast playing. Just another approach, maybe even a more advantageous approach (Benson, Martino, Bernstein, Cecil Alexander, Lucian Gray)

This is basically what I think. There’s shades of grey in the middle. I think the OP has touched on an issue - there’s no book on this. I don’t feel qualified to write one.

But - maybe Miles Okazaki could?


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[pamosmusic]

Gotcha.

You going to learn melodies on string pairs? Or technical stuff?... 2 note per string 7th arps? Triad pairs? Scales?

I always learn melodies on single strings and string pairs. I always do my sort “improvising practice” — like trying things out over tunes — in string pairs. Technical stuff probably 60-40 positions. I’ve done some wild stuff on single or paired strings that probably wasn’t productive, but then again, I did it so who knows.

[MarkRhodes]

I was half joking the other day with a student that I should just play with three fingers and downstrokes…. But the thing is when I play that way it does sound better haha. It is vibey and I feel it swings more even if it’s a little more limited.

But I’ve been ruined!

We all want to do the fancy stuff…

As Shakespeare put it, "The vibe is the thing, wherein we'll catch the conscience of Elvis." Or something like that. Brits: who can really make out what they're trying to say?

I love this vibe.

[MarkRhodes]

Here you go.

Thanks for that.
I seem to prefer (in the first one, G major) using only fingers 1 and 3 on the D and G strings when ascending the scale. When descending, I prefer 3,2,1 on the G string but 3,3, 1 on the D. Same pitches either way but the feel is different.

I think that many early jazz players (and most early blues and rock players with whom I am very familiar) it started out by learning licks rather than etudes, and soloing was a matter of "shuffling Freddie King licks around" (as Eric Clapton once described his method.)
I remember Jimmy Bruno saying that he never learned whole solos by anyone; he just picked up lines here and there that struck him. (You'll notice that when he talks about Charlie Parker licks it's almost always from the same one---he really loves that lick!) Benson was a lick guy. Lot of blues players are. If you start to play that way, you're not just playing a series of notes but you're playing a phrase with dynamics, feel, a strong rhythm AND A DEFINITE ENDPOINT. (Conversely, students who practice scales and arpeggios to start with, often sound like they're practicing scales and arpeggios when taking a solo: noodling.)

One exception to this is Joe Pass. He wanted students to play in in eighth notes with no rests for an entire progression. Part of the purpose of that was to keep one from playing any memorized or practiced licks. So, some of his books have etudes like that. (But he didn't expect students to play them as solos during a performance. They were exercises.)

One great advantage for this if one wants to play jazz is that if you are playing over challenging (for you, whatever your level) changes and you know a standard written on those changes, well, a quote from that melody is going to work perfectly and save you if you can't think of anything of your own to get you through that section.

[pamosmusic]

(Conversely, students who practice scales and arpeggios to start with, often sound like they're practicing scales and arpeggios when taking a solo: noodling.)

I started with scales and arpeggios because I lived in a tiny town and my (excellent) guitar teacher was a metalhead. Of course this is a both/and thing. But if you're applying this logic to how people who practiced scales sound like they're just practicing scales, then you should probably apply it equally. People who started with etudes sound like they're playing etudes. People who started with licks sound like they're just slapping together licks.

I think probably what we mean when we say anything like this is that immature players sound immature. Players who start learning scales should obviously also start getting into vocabulary as soon as possible. Players who start learning licks also need to learn the way the instrument is put together. If they don't, then the short-comings of each approach persist.

Push comes to shove, I think I'd probably rather a student learn licks with all the hindsight I have now, but push doesn't come to shove and I make them learn both in parallel. And scales first. (Also doesn't Jimmy Bruno too?)

[AllanAllen]

As Shakespeare put it, "The vibe is the thing, wherein we'll catch the conscience of Elvis." Or something like that. Brits: who can really make out what they're trying to say?

I love this vibe.

Now that’s something worth transcribing.

[AllanAllen]

I started with scales and arpeggios because I lived in a tiny town and my (excellent) guitar teacher was a metalhead. Of course this is a both/and thing. But if you're applying this logic to how people who practiced scales sound like they're just practicing scales, then you should probably apply it equally. People who started with etudes sound like they're playing etudes. People who started with licks sound like they're just slapping together licks.

I think probably what we mean when we say anything like this is that immature players sound immature. Players who start learning scales should obviously also start getting into vocabulary as soon as possible. Players who start learning licks also need to learn the way the instrument is put together. If they don't, then the short-comings of each approach persist.

Push comes to shove, I think I'd probably rather a student learn licks with all the hindsight I have now, but push doesn't come to shove and I make them learn both in parallel. And scales first. (Also doesn't Jimmy Bruno too?)

I spent like a year on scales, up and down, patterns and stuff. All my practice was major scale various positions through 12 keys.

Glad I did it and I’d recommend it, it’s part of learning. My ear got better, I’m comfortable all over the guitar now. My solos at the time were bad, but they would have been bad if I only knew 5 licks too.

Eventually, I thought I got to pulling arpeggios from the scales and that’s what I use for soloing, the chord shapes on the scale. Diatonic thirds and target notes.

Transcribing licks showed me I could play and stop and it wound be fine. I wonder if horn guys know how much having to breathe can help their phrasing.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Many close-up shots in this enable studying the fantastic phrasing of Ofer Landsberg who mostly uses three fingers. There seem to be no positions at all.

Peter Bernstein, three-finger-guy as well, plays diagonally very often as well or even on one string only.

[Mick-7]

I always learn melodies on single strings and string pairs. I always do my sort “improvising practice” — like trying things out over tunes — in string pairs. Technical stuff probably 60-40 positions. I’ve done some wild stuff on single or paired strings that probably wasn’t productive, but then again, I did it so who knows.

I presume that "string pairs" means only two strings... Any two strings? Do you rotate them, play one set of strings and then another? But maybe that's not necessary because the technique will be essentially the same on any string set.

[Mick-7]

Many close-up shots in this enable studying the fantastic phrasing of Ofer Landsberg who mostly uses three fingers. There seem to be no positions at all.

He appears to be using his first finger almost exclusively to shift positions.

[pauln]

Maybe first decide if you want to emphasize playing the finger board or playing fingerings.

Playing the finger board is using your fingers (one, two, three, four, thumb over, whatever) to finger the pitch locations on the finger board with prime focus on the finger board locations (as mappings, shapes, pitch proxies, etc.) which you select through reading, or theory, or by ear.

Playing a fingering means using a scheme of fingerings (position fingering patterns) devised so that the relative scale degrees and chord tones map to the fingerings with prime focus on the fingerings (as mappings, shapes, pitch proxies, etc.) which you select through reading, or theory, or by ear.

You may find yourself somewhat using a mixture. For example with three fingered playing you may think of playing C D Eb on the first string as

- fingers 1(C) 2(D) 3(Eb) playing the finger board by looking, hearing, feeling, or knowing that those locations need to be played (and if then playing C Db Eb you would "play the finger board" knowing 1(C) 2(Db) 3(Eb) needs the second finger to move location).
or
- fingers 1(C) 2(D) 3(Eb) playing the fingering from a fingering pattern (depending on context, e.g., Dorian), knowing the patterns that apply, and knowing that different fingering patterns would apply for playing C Db Eb that include the second finger difference.

Except for a few words, the difference between these is subtle. How are your musical ideas actualized at execution... onto the board or within a fingering? Can you tell the difference?

[pamosmusic]

I presume that "string pairs" means only two strings... Any two strings? Do you rotate them, play one set of strings and then another? But maybe that's not necessary because the technique will be essentially the same on any string set.

Why yes, Mick. A pair does generally indicate a group of two

For an actual answer … yeah and two strings, though over time I’ve stopped skipping more than one, so I might play on B and D, but not really on B and A anymore.

Definitely rotate them. They aren’t really the same everywhere. Of course crossing the G-B puts the major third in, the intervals end up in different places with different string sets and different keys, the strings just physically feel different etc. For melodies I do them all but start on the B and E because of the utility for chord melody. Otherwise I try to do them all pretty equally.

[GuyBoden]

But, does using only three fingers for fretting notes influence your phrasing?

Is there a noticeable difference between four finger and three finger phrasing?

[Christian Miller]

But, does using only three fingers for fretting notes influence your phrasing?

Is there a noticeable difference between four finger and three finger phrasing?

I think so.

Maybe I’ll do an A/B audio of me improvising both ways if I have time and you can guess which is which


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[joe2758]

I used to do pretty much classical fingering. A few months ago I tried to play 3 finger technique for a while. Now I use my 4th finger only when there would otherwise be a stretch between fingers 2 and 3, or four notes on a string.

[pingu]

But, does using only three fingers for fretting notes influence your phrasing?

Is there a noticeable difference between four finger and three finger phrasing?

just for me three finger thumb over
is bluesier

[MarkRhodes]

I also think people on the forum focus too much on scales in position. I’m not saying don’t do it - but more that jazz lines don’t much resemble scales in position.

Also - you may want to explore using different fingerings going up and down scales.

Lot of views on scales. The most anti-scale view I know (from a world-class player) is Carol Kaye's. Herb Ellis thought it was good to know some but that he didn't think one should devote a lot of time to practicing them and too that one need not practice them in impractical positions. (Same w arpeggios.) On the other hand, Frank Vignola wants to play everything every possible way. In some of his material for Mel Bay and at True Fire, there's a lot of attention given to scale exercises (and arpeggio exercises.)

Carol Kaye is not big on playing in positions. It's just not how she learned, I guess. (She learned from Horace Hatchett, who also taught Herb Ellis. Carol was poor and could only afford a few lessons, so Horace said he would continue to teach her if she would teach his beginner students. I think she started gigging at 14.) Jimmy Bruno has his "five fingerings" and he makes beginners master them, but his own playing is not position-bound.

I think some great players don't teach much and haven't worked out a systematic approach, while others do some teaching but only of Serious Students, so they may say nothing meant for beginners because they only take students who have a lot of the fundamentals down cold; still others have taught many beginners and have a good idea of how The Average Person can develop a solid foundation in a reasonable amount of time.

And too, a lot of old school players come from the "learn on the bandstand" perspective, whereas there's not a lot of bandstand experience available for beginners now.

[Christian Miller]

Lot of views on scales. The most anti-scale view I know (from a world-class player) is Carol Kaye's. Herb Ellis thought it was good to know some but that he didn't think one should devote a lot of time to practicing them and too that one need not practice them in impractical positions. (Same w arpeggios.) On the other hand, Frank Vignola wants to play everything every possible way. In some of his material for Mel Bay and at True Fire, there's a lot of attention given to scale exercises (and arpeggio exercises.)

Carol Kaye is not big on playing in positions. It's just not how she learned, I guess. (She learned from Horace Hatchett, who also taught Herb Ellis. Carol was poor and could only afford a few lessons, so Horace said he would continue to teach her if she would teach his beginner students. I think she started gigging at 14.) Jimmy Bruno has his "five fingerings" and he makes beginners master them, but his own playing is not position-bound.

I think some great players don't teach much and haven't worked out a systematic approach, while others do some teaching but only of Serious Students, so they may say nothing meant for beginners because they only take students who have a lot of the fundamentals down cold; still others have taught many beginners and have a good idea of how The Average Person can develop a solid foundation in a reasonable amount of time.

And too, a lot of old school players come from the "learn on the bandstand" perspective, whereas there's not a lot of bandstand experience available for beginners now.

Fwiw I think it’s good to practice scales. It teaches you where the notes are.

When you try to go straight from scales to music - I think it’s more problematic. I don’t recommend it to most. I think it’s better to get acquainted with the music first and work on your ear and feel.

Even with Barry Harris actually, but especially with chord scale theory used as a way of teaching improvisation. (Works for some tho, but you won’t play bop that way, more modern stuff.)

[paulkogut]

In the early 90's, it was a BIG deal when the bootleg VHS of Wes Montgomery on Jazz 625 started getting passed around. Now that that and much more is right there on the YouTube, folks have the opportunity to observe multiple guitarists and find fretboard organizational strategies that work the best for their music.

PK

[ccroft]

I hear you PK. I first got interested in jazz when all I had to go on were LP's in a small city on Vancouver island +/- 1970. No way to know how many fingers Django, Wes, Martino or McLaughlin were using. Might get a clue from album cover pics, but I never actually thought about it.

If I was starting now? A bit confusing actually. Maybe a teacher is needed now more than ever, just to get a foot-hold and get going. How does a young player know which fretboard strategy is going to be best for them in the long run?

I like what some of the guys here are doing: get something working for you, and then mix it up a bit and see what shakes out.

[Mick-7]

Why yes, Mick. A pair does generally indicate a group of two

For an actual answer … yeah and two strings, though over time I’ve stopped skipping more than one, so I might play on B and D, but not really on B and A anymore.

Definitely rotate them. They aren’t really the same everywhere. Of course crossing the G-B puts the major third in, the intervals end up in different places with different string sets and different keys, the strings just physically feel different etc. For melodies I do them all but start on the B and E because of the utility for chord melody. Otherwise I try to do them all pretty equally.

When I said, "maybe that's not necessary (i.e., rotating string sets) because the technique will be essentially the same on any string set," I meant the fingering technique since that is what this thread is about. That is, whatever fingering system you use would/should be consistent across all string sets. Therefore, if you're only working on fingering technique, there'd be no reason to repeat the exercise on multiple string pairs, unless you're working on where you will shift positions, in which case you'll want to practice going from one string set to an adjacent set.

[pamosmusic]

When I said, "maybe that's not necessary (i.e., rotating string sets) because the technique will be essentially the same on any string set," I meant the fingering technique since that is what this thread is about. That is, whatever fingering system you use would/should be consistent across all string sets. Therefore, if you're only working on fingering technique, there'd be no reason to repeat the exercise on multiple string pairs, unless you're working on where you will shift positions, in which case you'll want to practice going from one string set to an adjacent set.

I mean ... this is pretty obviously untrue though, right? People say this about the guitar all the time, just because you don't have to reinvent the wheel in every key like you do with some instruments, but there aren't no differences between keys. Sort of like how you mention "unless you're working on where you will shift positions." Because shifting positions would be a pretty essential part of fingering technique. Also it sounds like when you're referring to shifting positions, you're talking about switching string-sets, which wouldn't be the same thing. Part of keeping yourself on one set of strings is that it forces you to shift positions a lot more than you might otherwise.

And from there, it matters were those transitions happen because of the spacing of the frets. Playing guitar doesn't feel the same on low strings as on high. etc etc.

That's sort of like telling a trumpet player that a series of notes up above the staff is the same as a series of notes below the staff because they're using the same fingerings.

[Mick-7]

I mean ... this is pretty obviously untrue though, right? People say this about the guitar all the time, just because you don't have to reinvent the wheel in every key like you do with some instruments, but there aren't no differences between keys. Sort of like how you mention "unless you're working on where you will shift positions." Because shifting positions would be a pretty essential part of fingering technique. Also it sounds like when you're referring to shifting positions, you're talking about switching string-sets, which wouldn't be the same thing. Part of keeping yourself on one set of strings is that it forces you to shift positions a lot more than you might otherwise.

And from there, it matters were those transitions happen because of the spacing of the frets. Playing guitar doesn't feel the same on low strings as on high. etc etc.

That's sort of like telling a trumpet player that a series of notes up above the staff is the same as a series of notes below the staff because they're using the same fingerings.

I guess I'm just not convinced that practicing playing on string pairs would be useful to me. What has it done for you?

[AllanAllen]

In the early 90's, it was a BIG deal when the bootleg VHS of Wes Montgomery on Jazz 625 started getting passed around. Now that that and much more is right there on the YouTube, folks have the opportunity to observe multiple guitarists and find fretboard organizational strategies that work the best for their music.

PK

Wow, this is the best Wes I've ever heard.

[deacon Mark]

It is different for everyone, but I have 4 fingers and use them all. I find in fact I use my ring and pinky quite a bit. Now I am not Wes or George but might as well use them all that is why they are present. Just look at Adam Rogers and I dig his sound and phrasing. But of course, can't do it like him. Never really thought about just using 3 fingers and not pinky it could get weak?